Committee
Justice 1 Committee, 06 Jun 2002
06 Jun 2002 · S1 · Justice 1 Committee
Item of business
Prison Estates Review
I have a final question. The underlying issue is whether, in net present value terms, we can save £700 million by building three private prisons. The PWC report uses the Kilmarnock model—not the published numbers, but the contract that was drawn up for Kilmarnock—as its comparator for private build, private operate. That is a legitimate exercise to conduct in order to consider the order-of-magnitude savings, and it revealed very large order-of-magnitude savings. However, a couple of questions flow from that about the actuality, about which the SPS must take a view.You are right to say that the financing costs are taken off balance sheet, but we should have a handle on whether the rates of return that the Kilmarnock operator has realised from the process is an issue in which we should have an interest. More important than the financing costs are the savings on operations. If it were possible to make savings on operations of that order of magnitude in a small part of the prison estate, surely it would be critical for the rest of the estate to have an underlying sense of the cost drivers. The PWC report is drawn up—I do not dispute it as an exercise to consider the order-of-magnitude savings—on the basis of the contract that was drawn up for Kilmarnock five years ago, not what has happened. It is based on what the operator says that it can do. The critical issue for us in respect of the stewardship of the estate is to have an underlying sense of how that can be done more efficiently, what has been the cost and how the lessons are imported into the operation of the rest of the estate. That is why the failure to take a retrospective look at the cost drivers in the Kilmarnock model and what has emerged continues to trouble me.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
SNP
I refer members to paper J1/02/24/1. We will pick up where we left our discussion on private prisons. As no one else wants to start, I will begin with one of...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I recognise and respect the moral argument that some people use that there is no place for the private sector in running prisons. I want to make it clear tha...
The Convener:
SNP
I hope that you are not suggesting that members of the legal fraternity encourage crime for the sake of their profits.
Mr Wallace:
LD
No, I am not, but they derive an income—a substantial income, in some cases—
The Convener:
SNP
I thought that they served justice.
Mr Wallace:
LD
They derive an income because crime exists. Everyone would be highly delighted if crime were to be totally eliminated.We should face up to the fact that a nu...
The Convener:
SNP
Forgive me, minister. I appreciate that, but the point that I was making was that there would be more endeavour in the public sector to encourage rehabilitat...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I have heard that view expressed before. It is a very cynical view and there is no evidence to back it up. I ask the committee to remember that, at the end o...
The Convener:
SNP
Let me continue with our theme of privately run prisons. The minister's ambition is, I think, to reduce the number of prisoners through the use of alternativ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
That is a hypothetical question about the projected numbers, although I would love to see the numbers fall—I hope that we would all be delighted if prison nu...
The Convener:
SNP
But it remains the case that, through the Executive, the Scottish public would be locked into 25-year contracts or what not, and that things can greatly chan...
Mr Wallace:
LD
In the circumstances of the hypothesis that you put forward, that would represent best value for the taxpayer. I rather hope, too, that the public benefit of...
The Convener:
SNP
The committee has received evidence that, elsewhere in the world, privately built, privately run prisons are now going back into the public domain—certainly ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Examples of that having happened exist. We cannot say that it is a universal trend. New private prisons are opening up. Mr Cameron probably has better all-ro...
The Convener:
SNP
The question is to both of you.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I think that the authorities in South Africa are opening a very substantial private prison. It is far bigger than any such prison that we would want in Scotl...
Tony Cameron (Scottish Prison Service):
The commentators tend to focus on instances in which a privately managed prison has been taken back into public management. That is news. Movements in the ot...
The Convener:
SNP
Those prisons are run by Premier Prison Services, are they not?
Tony Cameron:
No, they are not.
The Convener:
SNP
Are they not in the family of that company?
Tony Cameron:
No, I think not. Neither prison is. One of those prisons was in that family, but the ownership of the private sector prison at Kilmarnock has changed.
The Convener:
SNP
Yes, but I am thinking of the connection with the director.
Tony Cameron:
There are different trends. My understanding is that the worldwide provision of prisons built and run by the private sector is still expanding rapidly.
The Convener:
SNP
I leave that to the committee. That did not appear to be the evidence from some of our previous witnesses.
Tony Cameron:
I am not surprised.
The Convener:
SNP
I welcome Maureen Macmillan and Wendy Alexander to the meeting. I also omitted to welcome Stewart Stevenson, who has a well-known constituency interest.I tha...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On the international experience, America was the country that led the way in developing private prisons. That country has considerable experience of private ...
Tony Cameron:
I could not comment overall. It is difficult to generalise.
Michael Matheson:
SNP
You commented that the private prison market is still expanding rapidly, Mr Cameron. We have had clear evidence from an expert in the field who said that tha...
Tony Cameron:
Premier Prison Services is no longer connected to Wackenhut Corrections, as you know.