Chamber
Plenary, 27 Sep 2001
27 Sep 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Police and Fire Services (Finance) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As fire service pensions are not directly related to the bill, I will deal with the issue that remains largely outstanding: ministerial approval. The evidence provided by Chief Constable William Rae and his ACPOS colleagues crystallised what I regard as the main issue: more effective financial planning—in other words, financial planning with the flexibility that is currently available to local authorities. As Chief Constable Rae said, the requirement for ministerial approval as well as constituent authority approval will
"not create the facility that the bill is intended to create of allowing us to break away from the annual budget cycle."—[Official Report, Local Government Committee, 4 September 2001; c 2146.]
The chief constable felt that the ministers currently have adequate controls to prevent large balances building up, including the proposed 3 per cent limit; the fact that ministers determine the total grant-aided expenditure levels for both the whole service and individual forces, against which the police-specific grant is paid; and the controls over capital allocations and any discretionary funds that are allocated. It was strongly argued that there is no possibility of the grant being used for non-police purposes and that balances cannot be held for the sake of it. ACPOS felt
"The proposal for Ministerial approval would introduce uncertainty and unnecessary bureaucracy to the financial planning process".
Chief Constable Andrew Cameron argued that a system of ministerial approval and constituent authority approval
"would hinder our confidence in following the principle of three-year budgetary planning",
although I accept that the issue of constituent authority approval has now been dealt with. Chief Constable Cameron also argued that local unit commanders needed to have increased confidence
"at inspector level to prioritise their local community needs."—[Official Report, Local Government Committee, 4 September 2001, c 2151.]
More devolved financial management would allow that to happen. Local needs could be prioritised and dealt with in an on-going and effective manner.
Other witnesses argued that sufficient structures are in place at police and fire board level to make ministerial approval unnecessary. Indeed, it was felt that a requirement for ministerial approval goes against the spirit of the bill, which is to give the police and fire services more freedom to manage their budgets flexibly and effectively. In response to my question about when ministerial approval would be required, Iain Gray implied that the system would be so informal as to be non-existent. If so, there seems no reason for requiring ministerial approval. Tricia Marwick made the same point earlier.
The sentiments that I have expressed wholly reflect the feeling of the Local Government Committee. There are still issues to discuss, but all members of the committee are agreed on the general principles of the bill and on the need to move forward with it.
"not create the facility that the bill is intended to create of allowing us to break away from the annual budget cycle."—[Official Report, Local Government Committee, 4 September 2001; c 2146.]
The chief constable felt that the ministers currently have adequate controls to prevent large balances building up, including the proposed 3 per cent limit; the fact that ministers determine the total grant-aided expenditure levels for both the whole service and individual forces, against which the police-specific grant is paid; and the controls over capital allocations and any discretionary funds that are allocated. It was strongly argued that there is no possibility of the grant being used for non-police purposes and that balances cannot be held for the sake of it. ACPOS felt
"The proposal for Ministerial approval would introduce uncertainty and unnecessary bureaucracy to the financial planning process".
Chief Constable Andrew Cameron argued that a system of ministerial approval and constituent authority approval
"would hinder our confidence in following the principle of three-year budgetary planning",
although I accept that the issue of constituent authority approval has now been dealt with. Chief Constable Cameron also argued that local unit commanders needed to have increased confidence
"at inspector level to prioritise their local community needs."—[Official Report, Local Government Committee, 4 September 2001, c 2151.]
More devolved financial management would allow that to happen. Local needs could be prioritised and dealt with in an on-going and effective manner.
Other witnesses argued that sufficient structures are in place at police and fire board level to make ministerial approval unnecessary. Indeed, it was felt that a requirement for ministerial approval goes against the spirit of the bill, which is to give the police and fire services more freedom to manage their budgets flexibly and effectively. In response to my question about when ministerial approval would be required, Iain Gray implied that the system would be so informal as to be non-existent. If so, there seems no reason for requiring ministerial approval. Tricia Marwick made the same point earlier.
The sentiments that I have expressed wholly reflect the feeling of the Local Government Committee. There are still issues to discuss, but all members of the committee are agreed on the general principles of the bill and on the need to move forward with it.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is the stage 1 debate on motion S1M-1992, in the name of Jim Wallace, on the general principles of the Police and Fire Services (Fi...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I thank the Local Government Committee for its careful consideration of the Police and Fire Services (Finance) (Scotland) Bill and for its report, which prov...
Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Am I right in saying that a 3 per cent limit also applies to the fire service, which has a different financial structure from the police service? There is pe...
Iain Gray:
Lab
The limit on carry-forward carries with it an element of control. The reason for making similar proposals for the fire service and the police service is a ma...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that members wish to welcome to the chamber representatives of the police service in Fife. It is a nice coincidence that they are visiting today wh...
Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I congratulate Tricia Marwick on speaking for a full seven minutes. She has said practically everything that I was going to say, so I will find it difficult ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Mr Harding does not have to speak for five minutes.
Mr Harding:
Con
Oh but I must, just to deprive Mr Rumbles of the time.The Conservatives, like the majority of the witnesses who gave evidence to the Local Government Committ...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
Mr Harding and I have both served on police boards in our time. Does he agree that the pension problem is potentially so big that it might not be best to tac...
Mr Harding:
Con
There is no doubt that that is a possible solution. That is why I have asked the minister to consider the issue separately and open up the debate. As Tricia ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
The bill's primary purpose is to allow fire and police authorities to carry forward any underspends in their budgets to the following financial year. The mea...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
The Local Government Committee's discussion of the Police and Fire Services (Finance) (Scotland) Bill was interesting and raised some important issues. Howev...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Do not conduct conversations in between the speaker and the chair, please, Mr Gibson.
Dr Jackson:
Lab
As fire service pensions are not directly related to the bill, I will deal with the issue that remains largely outstanding: ministerial approval. The evidenc...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Consensus is rife in the chamber today. That is always welcome during stage 1 consideration of a bill. Amendments can be made at stages 2 and 3.This bill con...
Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
One of the Parliament's strengths can be found in the fact that we are able to find time to introduce short bills that tidy up some of the issues that seem t...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
When I heard the minister use the term "devious machination", I wondered what he was intending to bring into play. I was certainly disturbed from my afternoo...
Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab):
Lab
Today will not be the first time that the minister has accepted much of what is in a stage 1 report that has been produced by the Local Government Committee....
Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
As a consensus politician—which I clearly am—I found myself in a rising panic at the prospect of talking about the bill. Every speaker chipped away more and ...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
Consensus has a soporific quality, so I shall try to inject a little controversy into the debate to liven up proceedings. In the proper manner of winding up,...
Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
On behalf of my party, I welcome the Police and Fire Services (Finance) (Scotland) Bill. Police and fire brigades are essential parts of community protection...
Tricia Marwick:
SNP
I thank Trish Godman and the other members of the Local Government Committee, who have done far more work on the issue than I have—I have been a member of th...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Local Government (Peter Peacock):
Lab
Presiding Officer, the prospect of talking for 15 minutes on this subject daunts me, but I gather that you are going to suspend the meeting as soon as I sit ...
Mr Stone:
LD
I will press the minister on one issue. He will recall that, when the Tory party conference went to Inverness, the local police board's budget went pear-shap...
Peter Peacock:
Lab
On the general question of flexibility, the bill should help. The Deputy First Minister answered a question at last week's question time about the costs that...
Tricia Marwick:
SNP
I refer back to ministerial control. If the minister is saying that that control is going to be informal, I am at a loss to understand why it must be enshrin...
Peter Peacock:
Lab
The reason is the one that I have given the chamber. With an informal set of procedures, accumulated balances could build and build. We do not want that to h...