Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 20 Nov 2002
20 Nov 2002 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I had just relaxed, thinking that we would have stopped at half-past 11.Wetlands are an essential element of riverine systems. The bill makes considerable reference to surface water and groundwater. Those terms do not quite cover wetlands, which need to be included specifically in the bill.It has been said that including wetlands in the bill will have certain consequences, including financial consequences. However, the financial consequences of not including wetlands in the bill are considerably greater than the financial consequences of dealing with them in an integrated and holistic way. Being faced with a £3 billion bill for flood damage is a pretty heavy counterweight to the cost of including wetlands in the bill along with surface water and groundwater.It has been said that the bill will create extra work for SEPA and will duplicate effort, but those arguments are mutually exclusive. If the work is already being done by bodies such as Scottish Natural Heritage and the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute, the required information exists and SEPA will not have to do much to include it in its characterisation.The bill allows for us to catch up if we are required by Europe to include wetlands in the provisions. However, it would be more cost-effective to include wetlands in the bill at this stage, and deal with them in an integrated way, than to add them to the bill later.I urge members to support amendment 32, to leave out "and groundwater" and insert "groundwater and wetlands", the amendments consequential on that and amendment 33, which defines what is meant by wetlands. As the convener said, we want to make it clear that we mean not every soggy park in Scotland, but wetlands that are part of a riverine system. We cannot realistically leave such wetlands out of a bill that deals with surface water and groundwater. Wetlands, surface water and groundwater are part of a coherent whole. It makes no sense to separate out one element.I move amendment 32.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome back to the committee the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Allan Wilson and several officials from the Scottish Executive.Mem...
Section 1—General purpose of Part 1
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 108, in the name of Nora Radcliffe, is in a group on its own.
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
In a sense, we are starting where we left off. At the end of our last meeting, I argued the case for the establishment of a benchmark against which the effec...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
There is an element of groundhog day to this. I reassure Nora Radcliffe that preventing the deterioration of our water bodies is a key part of the bill, and ...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
With due respect, I refute some of the minister's arguments. The whole point about the water directive was that it gave member states flexibility. That way o...
Amendment 108, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2—The general duties
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 24, in the name of Des McNulty, is grouped with amendments 56, 84, 27, 30 and 57.
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I spoke on issues relating to amendment 24 last week, so in recognition that we do not want to spend a lot of time in groundhog day, I will not repeat every ...
The Convener:
Lab
Fiona McLeod has not yet arrived, so I invite Bruce Crawford to speak on amendment 84.
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Fiona's train has been held up. I shall speak on her behalf.Des McNulty said that amendment 56 was a probing amendment to see whether the minister would be p...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The key words in amendment 27 are "active involvement". I concede that the bill includes a provision on consultation, which will bind SEPA to take account of...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
With amendment 30, I want to strengthen section 2(5) of the bill, which states:"Without prejudice to subsections (1) to (4), the Scottish Ministers and every...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I support Des McNulty's amendment 24, because the three-legged stool approach to sustainable development—that there are three elements that should each be gi...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Many issues have been raised and I will try to work through them in a way that ensures that I take people with me.Amendment 24 asks us to insert a new paragr...
The Convener:
Lab
I thank the minister for his comprehensive response. The group contains a number of amendments. Because of that, I allowed the minister the opportunity of re...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I take on board the commitments that the minister made, in particular his important commitment to promote a stage 3 amendment that would have the effect of i...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Yes, I would be happy to do that.
Des McNulty:
Lab
On the basis of the minister's commitment, I am content to seek the committee's agreement to withdraw amendment 24.When I spoke to amendment 56, I indicated ...
The Convener:
Lab
Given that Des McNulty has put a question to the minister, I am prepared to allow the minister to respond to that.
Allan Wilson:
Lab
As I indicated earlier, wetlands are included in the designation. Des McNulty asked a specific question about the potential costs of amendment 57. We are con...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I understand from considerations within the European Union that there is likely to be a revision of the water directive, which will explicitly expand the req...
The Convener:
Lab
You can address that point to the minister, but I want to draw this discussion to a close, because we do not want a dialogue between the pair of you to conti...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Michael Kellet discussed precisely that at a European meeting either last week or two weeks ago. The relationship between the Executive and the EU as far as ...
The Convener:
Lab
I ask Des McNulty to complete his remarks briefly.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I have completed them already.
The Convener:
Lab
I understand that you indicated earlier that you wished to withdraw amendment 24. Is that correct?
Des McNulty:
Lab
Yes.