Chamber
Plenary, 21 Dec 2006
21 Dec 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Trident
I will come to that in a minute, if Alex Neil does not mind. I want to talk first about our opportunities to influence the debate.
We must use the opportunity to engage internationally with other nuclear powers at every level to bring about a reduction in nuclear weapons. Like Joan Ruddock, I believe that we now have a large window of opportunity to do that. The first decision that the Government will make will be on the commissioning of new submarines, but the decision on the new warheads will not be made until after the next UK election. That gives us months, if not years, to engage with the European Union, the United Nations, the G8 and NATO with a view to reducing warheads worldwide and with our missiles thrown into the bargaining pool.
However, I am concerned that the Scottish National Party wishes to withdraw Scotland from NATO. SNP members say that they do not wish to be beholden to the American bomb for their defence. That, of course, would not save them from nuclear fallout if there was a nuclear war, because it is no respecter of boundaries. The SNP policy of leaving NATO would have serious repercussions for Scotland. Angus Robertson, the MP for Moray, has complained that there might be a delay in getting the promised new fighter plane for the Moray air bases, but if Scotland leaves NATO there will be no new planes. Perhaps Richard Lochhead will tell us how many civilian jobs would be left in Kinloss and Lossiemouth in his constituency if SNP policy were to be followed.
Over the next few months, Trident's future will be debated thoroughly. Nobody in the Parliament wants nuclear weapons to be used, but we do not all agree on the best way to prevent their use. The argument lies in how best to prevent nuclear war and how best to safeguard our country.
I move amendment S2M-5355.5, to leave out from "the publication" to end and insert:
"that the UK Government has initiated a debate on the future of the independent nuclear deterrent force and urges everyone in Scotland to take part in it; recognises that the decisions on national defence are rightly reserved to Westminster; considers that any government has a primary duty to protect the security of its people and that this includes a credible policy on national defence and international security; believes in a shared objective of a world without nuclear weapons and supports further reductions in the global nuclear arsenal; further believes that, in seeking a world free from nuclear weapons, we should utilise and develop our international engagement at every level including at the EU, the United Nations including the UK's seat on the Security Council, NATO and the G8; notes with concern the plans of the SNP to take Scotland out of the collective security arrangements of the UK and NATO and to establish separate armed forces for Scotland with greatly diminished capabilities either to contribute to international peacekeeping operations or even to defend Scottish interests, and rejects those policies on the grounds that they would threaten the security of Scotland, diminish our armed forces and destroy jobs."
We must use the opportunity to engage internationally with other nuclear powers at every level to bring about a reduction in nuclear weapons. Like Joan Ruddock, I believe that we now have a large window of opportunity to do that. The first decision that the Government will make will be on the commissioning of new submarines, but the decision on the new warheads will not be made until after the next UK election. That gives us months, if not years, to engage with the European Union, the United Nations, the G8 and NATO with a view to reducing warheads worldwide and with our missiles thrown into the bargaining pool.
However, I am concerned that the Scottish National Party wishes to withdraw Scotland from NATO. SNP members say that they do not wish to be beholden to the American bomb for their defence. That, of course, would not save them from nuclear fallout if there was a nuclear war, because it is no respecter of boundaries. The SNP policy of leaving NATO would have serious repercussions for Scotland. Angus Robertson, the MP for Moray, has complained that there might be a delay in getting the promised new fighter plane for the Moray air bases, but if Scotland leaves NATO there will be no new planes. Perhaps Richard Lochhead will tell us how many civilian jobs would be left in Kinloss and Lossiemouth in his constituency if SNP policy were to be followed.
Over the next few months, Trident's future will be debated thoroughly. Nobody in the Parliament wants nuclear weapons to be used, but we do not all agree on the best way to prevent their use. The argument lies in how best to prevent nuclear war and how best to safeguard our country.
I move amendment S2M-5355.5, to leave out from "the publication" to end and insert:
"that the UK Government has initiated a debate on the future of the independent nuclear deterrent force and urges everyone in Scotland to take part in it; recognises that the decisions on national defence are rightly reserved to Westminster; considers that any government has a primary duty to protect the security of its people and that this includes a credible policy on national defence and international security; believes in a shared objective of a world without nuclear weapons and supports further reductions in the global nuclear arsenal; further believes that, in seeking a world free from nuclear weapons, we should utilise and develop our international engagement at every level including at the EU, the United Nations including the UK's seat on the Security Council, NATO and the G8; notes with concern the plans of the SNP to take Scotland out of the collective security arrangements of the UK and NATO and to establish separate armed forces for Scotland with greatly diminished capabilities either to contribute to international peacekeeping operations or even to defend Scottish interests, and rejects those policies on the grounds that they would threaten the security of Scotland, diminish our armed forces and destroy jobs."
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5355, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on Trident.
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
A recent opinion poll asked people in Scotland whether they thought that this Parliament should have the power to decide whether nuclear weapons remained on ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Over recent years, the UK has given up air, ground and operational theatre nuclear weapons. What effect has that had on other countries that are still intent...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
The idea that the UK has had nuclear disarmament in recent years does not hold water. In the white paper, Tony Blair says that he wants to reduce warheads by...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the debate initiated by the UK Government on the future of Trident. This is the first time that a Government has called for a national debate on th...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
No.This should be a debate not about the constitution, but about Trident. The UK Government will make the decision on Trident in due course, and Scotland is ...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Maureen Macmillan makes the point that we are supposed to be having a debate. What does she think the chances are that, at the end of that debate, Tony Blair...
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
I will come to that in a minute, if Alex Neil does not mind. I want to talk first about our opportunities to influence the debate.We must use the opportunity...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Nicola Sturgeon referred to an opinion poll. The opinion polls at the last general election were clear: they backed Labour, which in its manifesto promised t...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Sarah Boyack (Edinburgh Central) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Phil Gallie:
Con
I give way to Nicola Sturgeon.
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
We are having the debate because it deals with a vital issue for people in Scotland—let us remember that Trident is based in Scotland. Furthermore, I remind ...
Phil Gallie:
Con
Tony Blair's position is his. I have defended his position in the past, and I have done so wrongly. I believe that he lied to the country on a particular iss...
Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Yes.
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will the member give way?
Phil Gallie:
Con
Are they saying that the submarines will be okay after 20 years? Are they prepared—
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Will the member give way?
Phil Gallie:
Con
No; the Liberals will have their say in a minute. They can answer then.Are the Liberals prepared to put the lives of submariners at risk in 20 years or so by...
Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD):
LD
It is useful for the Parliament to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate, although the decision is properly taken by the people whom we elect to W...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am in the last minute of my speech, so I will conclude.The threat of proliferation should prompt us to make a renewed effort to breathe life into the non-p...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We move to open debate. As members are aware, time is tight, therefore speeches will be limited to four minutes.
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
It is less than three months since we last debated Trident in the Parliament. In September we were debating in anticipation of a Government decision on renew...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Phil Gallie wonders why we are having this debate—I think we know why. We are having it for reasons of avoidance. We are avoiding a debate on any aspect of S...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is not the member supposed to address the motion?
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
She clearly linked energy and revenues to the defence budget. Her speech is in order.
Christine May:
Lab
Thank you.On local government, the SNP proposes a freeze on council tax. I am sorry, but it is questionable whether that is even legally possible. When that ...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
That is getting a little wide.