Chamber
Plenary, 11 Jan 2007
11 Jan 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The present system of automatic and unconditional early release of prisoners is rightly discredited; the system alarms victims and communities because they cannot understand why a person who has been sentenced to four years can be released after only two and can be kept under supervision only in particular circumstances—for example, if the person is a sex offender.
The Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill should provide more clarity for victims and the public alike. There should be a clear public announcement in court by the sheriff of the minimum time that an offender will spend in jail. That time will be at least half, and up to three quarters, of the sentence. There will be a risk assessment in prison for those who will serve less than three quarters of their sentence in custody. That assessment will decide—in real time—whether a prisoner should be allowed to complete their sentence in the community. Crucially, it will also decide whether the rehabilitation programmes and support services that have been begun in prison will continue in the community where the prisoner will serve the remainder of their sentence under licence conditions.
The principles of the bill have been warmly welcomed. Once enacted, the bill will work alongside the Management of Offenders etc (Scotland) Act 2005, which requires close co-operation between the Scottish Prison Service and the community justice associations, and builds on the integrated case management that has already been developed to deal with certain categories of offenders.
Much of the focus of debate in the Justice 2 Committee was on the custodial part of the sentence—especially on the perceived anomaly of the 15-day cut-off, whereby a 15-day sentence will be served totally in custody, but anything more will be served half in custody and half in the community. As other members have said, wherever the cut-off is, there will be an anomaly. The minister said that there is a minimum time in which rehabilitation measures are possible, but we need a fuller explanation of the minister's thinking. The minister might wish to consider whether there will be particular impacts on female offenders, who tend to be at the lower end of the tariff and who might need support.
We must not overlook the fact that the part of the sentence that is served in the community is just as important as the part of the sentence that is served in jail. Bill Whyte of the criminal justice social work development centre said in evidence:
"I value the bill's recognition that a period in the community should be part of the sentence … because that is what is likely to give us a chance to connect."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 14 November 2006; c 2967.]
The question that is therefore raised is this: can we have a seamless transition when we consider the numbers of prisoners that it is predicted will come through the prison system? It would be wonderful to be able to offer all offenders a gold standard of support after they leave prison, but there is concern that practical realities will mean that, if there is no prioritisation of resources to those who are most in need, resources will be spread too thinly, to the detriment of all.
I am sure that the Executive has given thought to that and, although I do not expect to see such practicalities in the bill, it would be useful to hear from the minister how priorities will be judged and who will make the judgments. As has been mentioned by other members, one solution that was mooted in evidence was that we should do away with short-term custodial sentences for minor offenders. Witnesses could not, however, agree on a cut-off point.
The debate has been going on for several years, and I feel that the committee was sidetracked somewhat from the main aspects of the bill. It is now perfectly possible for sheriffs to sentence offenders to community disposals. The number of sheriffs who do so is increasing; such disposals are increasingly seen as being neither soft nor ineffective. However, persuading sheriffs to increase the use of such disposals is outwith the scope of the bill, which deals with how custodial sentences should be managed when they are imposed. I hope that the Executive will do all that it can to promote the use of community disposals instead of prison disposals.
Sheriffs take a while to become comfortable with new sentences; naturally, they take time to examine them. We are told that they are somewhat uncertain about section 6 of the bill, which outlines the criteria that should be used in sentencing. It would be helpful if ministers could clarify that. I was pleased to hear the minister's commitment that the section would be reviewed.
Concerns have also been expressed that sheriffs may recalibrate sentences to retain the status quo—although ministers have indicated that that should not happen.
Another area of concern is the process of recall to prison if licence is breached. If release on licence is to be meaningful, a breach must be dealt with when it occurs. However, that raises questions of resources—for example, for the Parole Board, which will review the case, and for the Prison Service, which will provide accommodation. It has been suggested that there could be a revolving-door scenario. Questions have also been asked about the number of members of the Parole Board. Many of the questions will be answered when the detailed information work by the planning group is completed. I know that many of the bodies that asked those questions are members of the planning group, so I assume that they will address their own concerns. I look forward to their solutions.
I turn to the proposals in part 3 to restrict the sale of non-domestic knives and swords. I am sure that there is no one in the chamber who will not welcome those restrictions. We have heard over a number of months—not just during our consideration of the bill—from the violence reduction unit and from accident and emergency consultants about the seriousness of the knife-carrying culture that exists principally in west-central Scotland, although it is not exclusive to that area. Some other parts of the country may, in fact, have been complacent. I fear that that has been true of the area that I represent, although the Northern constabulary has recently expressed concerns about an increase in knife carrying and in the use of knives as weapons in assaults and robberies—in one case, a bayonet was used—and has said that any measure that stops casual carrying, mostly by young men, of those lethal weapons is to be commended. Victims and perpetrators are interchangeable and fatalities or serious injury can occur through panic and ignorance of basic anatomy. Let us do all that we can to stop it.
I support the principles of the bill and recommend it to Parliament.
The Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill should provide more clarity for victims and the public alike. There should be a clear public announcement in court by the sheriff of the minimum time that an offender will spend in jail. That time will be at least half, and up to three quarters, of the sentence. There will be a risk assessment in prison for those who will serve less than three quarters of their sentence in custody. That assessment will decide—in real time—whether a prisoner should be allowed to complete their sentence in the community. Crucially, it will also decide whether the rehabilitation programmes and support services that have been begun in prison will continue in the community where the prisoner will serve the remainder of their sentence under licence conditions.
The principles of the bill have been warmly welcomed. Once enacted, the bill will work alongside the Management of Offenders etc (Scotland) Act 2005, which requires close co-operation between the Scottish Prison Service and the community justice associations, and builds on the integrated case management that has already been developed to deal with certain categories of offenders.
Much of the focus of debate in the Justice 2 Committee was on the custodial part of the sentence—especially on the perceived anomaly of the 15-day cut-off, whereby a 15-day sentence will be served totally in custody, but anything more will be served half in custody and half in the community. As other members have said, wherever the cut-off is, there will be an anomaly. The minister said that there is a minimum time in which rehabilitation measures are possible, but we need a fuller explanation of the minister's thinking. The minister might wish to consider whether there will be particular impacts on female offenders, who tend to be at the lower end of the tariff and who might need support.
We must not overlook the fact that the part of the sentence that is served in the community is just as important as the part of the sentence that is served in jail. Bill Whyte of the criminal justice social work development centre said in evidence:
"I value the bill's recognition that a period in the community should be part of the sentence … because that is what is likely to give us a chance to connect."—[Official Report, Justice 2 Committee, 14 November 2006; c 2967.]
The question that is therefore raised is this: can we have a seamless transition when we consider the numbers of prisoners that it is predicted will come through the prison system? It would be wonderful to be able to offer all offenders a gold standard of support after they leave prison, but there is concern that practical realities will mean that, if there is no prioritisation of resources to those who are most in need, resources will be spread too thinly, to the detriment of all.
I am sure that the Executive has given thought to that and, although I do not expect to see such practicalities in the bill, it would be useful to hear from the minister how priorities will be judged and who will make the judgments. As has been mentioned by other members, one solution that was mooted in evidence was that we should do away with short-term custodial sentences for minor offenders. Witnesses could not, however, agree on a cut-off point.
The debate has been going on for several years, and I feel that the committee was sidetracked somewhat from the main aspects of the bill. It is now perfectly possible for sheriffs to sentence offenders to community disposals. The number of sheriffs who do so is increasing; such disposals are increasingly seen as being neither soft nor ineffective. However, persuading sheriffs to increase the use of such disposals is outwith the scope of the bill, which deals with how custodial sentences should be managed when they are imposed. I hope that the Executive will do all that it can to promote the use of community disposals instead of prison disposals.
Sheriffs take a while to become comfortable with new sentences; naturally, they take time to examine them. We are told that they are somewhat uncertain about section 6 of the bill, which outlines the criteria that should be used in sentencing. It would be helpful if ministers could clarify that. I was pleased to hear the minister's commitment that the section would be reviewed.
Concerns have also been expressed that sheriffs may recalibrate sentences to retain the status quo—although ministers have indicated that that should not happen.
Another area of concern is the process of recall to prison if licence is breached. If release on licence is to be meaningful, a breach must be dealt with when it occurs. However, that raises questions of resources—for example, for the Parole Board, which will review the case, and for the Prison Service, which will provide accommodation. It has been suggested that there could be a revolving-door scenario. Questions have also been asked about the number of members of the Parole Board. Many of the questions will be answered when the detailed information work by the planning group is completed. I know that many of the bodies that asked those questions are members of the planning group, so I assume that they will address their own concerns. I look forward to their solutions.
I turn to the proposals in part 3 to restrict the sale of non-domestic knives and swords. I am sure that there is no one in the chamber who will not welcome those restrictions. We have heard over a number of months—not just during our consideration of the bill—from the violence reduction unit and from accident and emergency consultants about the seriousness of the knife-carrying culture that exists principally in west-central Scotland, although it is not exclusive to that area. Some other parts of the country may, in fact, have been complacent. I fear that that has been true of the area that I represent, although the Northern constabulary has recently expressed concerns about an increase in knife carrying and in the use of knives as weapons in assaults and robberies—in one case, a bayonet was used—and has said that any measure that stops casual carrying, mostly by young men, of those lethal weapons is to be commended. Victims and perpetrators are interchangeable and fatalities or serious injury can occur through panic and ignorance of basic anatomy. Let us do all that we can to stop it.
I support the principles of the bill and recommend it to Parliament.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5336, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Custodia...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
Just over two years ago, when I launched the Scottish Executive's criminal justice plan, I said that reducing reoffending must be a priority for every part o...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
The minister talks about people wanting to lock up more offenders for longer, but no one wants to do that. We want to lock up fewer offenders. We see the Sco...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am glad to hear Mr Gallie's conversion to the cause of reducing reoffending and ensuring that we do not have to lock up as many people in the future. I loo...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The minister will be aware that in certain parts of the country, notably the north-east, less than half of the target number of supervisory meetings between ...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I thank Stewart Stevenson for his intervention. We have discussed the issue a number of times, so I know of his commitment to solving some of the problems in...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (Sol):
Sol
Will the minister take a short intervention?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I would like to move on—the Presiding Officer is looking at me.Our success will be measured by results. I believe that we will see the real benefits of the n...
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
Will the minister give way on that point?
Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP) rose—
SNP
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I will take a short intervention from Mr Sheridan.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Be very brief, Mr Sheridan.
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
I will. Although I support everything the minister has said so far, I am sure that prevention is a much better approach. Does the minister believe that there...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
Of course. I am sure that Mr Sheridan is aware of the work that is already under way, especially the let's not scar another generation campaign, which we are...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the minister for introducing the bill and for the comments she made in her speech. We generally support the direction in which she is travelling, and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Before I call the next speaker, I remind members, and members of the public, that their mobile phones should be off.
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The bill comes before the Parliament today as a result of serious concerns about the existing system of early release and the extent of knife crime.I think t...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
Does Mr Aitken accept that it is important that we reform the way in which offenders are managed in order to reduce the likelihood of their reoffending? Does...
Bill Aitken:
Con
There is an easy remedy. All that is required is for the sentence to be handed down——four years or whatever—and for a further order to be made stating that t...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Bill Aitken:
Con
I do not have time. Sorry.It is inevitable that the licence that will be granted to most offenders will contain only one condition— that they be of good beha...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
If I am correct, we just heard from the Conservatives a speech that called for the abolition of the Parole Board. It is the Parole Board's role not only to e...
Phil Gallie:
Con
The minister talked about trying to reduce the number of people in our prisons, yet Jeremy Purvis suggests that the bill will increase the prison population....
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
The issue is how the reforms will operate. As the financial memorandum says, the consequence of the reforms will be an increased prison population. The princ...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
The member has been right to raise that matter in committee and is right to do so again today. Short-term sentences in custody do not work. How does he recon...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
That depends on whether the bill is amended. The Parliament's job is to scrutinise legislation.One of my concerns is that the length of the custody part of a...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I thank the clerks and the Scottish Parliament information centre for their support in helping the Justice 2 Committee to consider the bill, and I thank all ...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Will Mr Davidson, in his capacity as the Conservative committee member who dissented, point to the principles within the bill with which he has difficulties?
Mr Davidson:
Con
The reason for my dissension is simple: I feel that the bill does not do what it says on the tin and is not yet in a form that is worthy of support.An offend...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I support the motion in the name of the minister. As a member of the Justice 2 Committee, I record my appreciation of the excellent support that the clerking...