Hansard

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

11 Dec 2013

Section 23 Reports

This is one of the issues that Bob Black said he was quite concerned about at the final committee meeting that he attended as Auditor General, although I do not remember the full extent of his concern.We are talking about many things—settlement agreements, compromise agreement...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

09 Sep 2015

Section 22 Reports

I seek clarity in relation to the questions from the convener and Stuart McMillan. You confirmed that payments were made that exceeded the terms of the college’s severance scheme. There is absolutely no doubt about that, and the payments also exceeded the terms of Scottish fun...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

Well, Laurence Howells has just said that he was in control of the mergers and that he was the accountable officer in control of the mergers. We need to be clear about that. What I am trying to understand is why Coatbridge College opted in, then opted out and then came back i...

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

I have read so much about the witnesses that it feels like you are characters in a novel who are coming to life. I am grateful for your evidence. Last week, John Doyle said, in response to a question that I asked him: “There were no voluntary severance applications prior to ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

You came up with a 6 per cent pay increase and two years’ salary, which is even more than any Edinburgh model. How did you come up with that very generous severance package for John Doyle? Who did you discuss that with, if it was not John Doyle—despite your talking to him at l...

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con Chamber

09 Feb 2016

Colleges

This has been an excellent debate. In all the years that I have been on the Public Audit Committee, it is the first debate that that committee has had in the chamber. I hope that there will be more in the next session of Parliament. I thank every member who contributed to the...

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con Chamber

13 May 2010

Scottish Executive Question Time · Economic Development (Highlands and Islands)

In March this year, 53 Highlands and Islands Enterprise employees were made redundant, with an average severance package of £63,600. According to Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the employees could be “removed without impacting significantly on HIE’s ability to fulfil its re...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

24 Jun 2015

Section 22 Report

As Stuart McMillan said, the North Glasgow College issues have been around for some time. We should also bear in mind on a morning when we have talked about skills gaps that money that is handed out in severance pay is money that is taken away from training and educating young...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

09 Sep 2015

Section 22 Reports

I ask because of our previous experience with North Glasgow College. We were told that we could not pursue people and ask for evidence because those who were culpable had left the sector. They had gone off to wherever and that was it. It would be helpful to know whether that i...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

I will go back to my earlier line of questioning. The SFC guidance on voluntary severance refers to 12 months’ pay for anyone who has more than 14 years’ service. Did staff at Motherwell and Cumbernauld—the other colleges that became part of New College Lanarkshire—enjoy 12 mo...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

After paragraph 17, the Auditor General’s report says: “The Chair and Principal of Coatbridge College did not provide the college’s Remuneration Committee with advice provided by the SFC”. Paragraph 13 says: “There is no evidence that the Remuneration Committee or the Board...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Can you confirm that Mr Doyle asked for a voluntary severance application to be considered by the remuneration committee on 28 January? Were your deliberations on that day a response to Mr Doyle asking about voluntary severance? Did he apply?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

But Biggart Baillie thought that the remuneration committee had been advised. I think that we are now much clearer about the remuneration committee, the audit committee and so on, but I am still struggling to understand the role of Roger Mullin. An email from him to John Doyl...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Given that Mr Doyle agreed to voluntary severance at the end of January and had a letter of confirmation from John Gray, why is Roger Mullin’s email of 18 August inviting him in to discuss the approach to due diligence, culture study and voluntary severance?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

I have a letter here—the information is coming in by the hour. The letter was from you to the members of the remuneration committee. In regard to John Doyle, you stated: “having talked to John at some length, it is now clear that John’s position in Lanarkshire is becoming eve...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

The letter to the remuneration committee states that “John ... now believes that the best way forward for all concerned, and, bearing in mind that there will only be one Principal’s job ... that we should now agree a severance package with him”. So you are adamant, despite e...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

Given that ministers appoint the chairs of college boards, which creates a direct line of accountability to ministers, it concerns me—and, I think, the public, who have taken a fair interest in the Coatbridge situation—that, if it had not been for the Auditor General’s section...

Mary Scanlon (Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body) Con Chamber

06 Jun 2013

Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Question Time · “Managing early departures from the Scottish public sector”

The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body exemplified the principles of good practice that the Audit Scotland report identifies when it ran its early severance and retirement scheme in 2010-11. The scheme achieved a reduction of 37 posts and fully paid for itself within two ye...

Mary Scanlon Con Chamber

30 Nov 2011

Public Sector Pensions

I appreciate that, Presiding Officer.If the First Minister were to read Lord Hutton’s report, he would see that the only means of making the schemes sustainable is to pay in—Interruption. I am just about to come to that, Mr Neil. I am pleased that my contribution is so importa...

The Deputy Convener Con Committee

19 Nov 2014

Section 22 Reports

To go back to Colin Beattie’s point, I note that the conclusion of the report was that “The Remuneration Committee had not met”. That is not acceptable, as James Dornan said. The report also stated that “The Committee received inadequate management support,” which is also ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

09 Sep 2015

Section 22 Reports

I have to say that I have been absolutely shocked reading this report. This is probably one of the worst examples that I have seen of people taking full advantage of a situation to line their own pockets. No one is named in the report, but are the people who enjoyed those seve...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

Okay. Before I go on to my second question, was there any change in the severance arrangements at Coatbridge College between January and July, when the college agreed to opt in again?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

So John Doyle and John Gray had the guidance on keeping within the level of severance payments in January and February.

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

That is fine—I thought that it was worth a try. When did both witnesses become aware of the Scottish funding council’s guidance on severance payments in relation to the merger of colleges?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

I am pleased about that. It is nice to get agreement now and again. The minutes are rather sparse. We have remuneration committee minutes from January 2013 and the next ones are from October 2013. However, we have had submissions from remuneration committee members, including...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

The decision to give you 30 months’ severance was made on 28 January 2013.

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

And not to the point where you would give them the guidance that they needed to adhere to the guidelines on paying your severance pay.

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

Mr Doyle and Mr Gray, did you withhold any information from the remuneration committee before it made the decision on Mr Doyle’s severance agreement or the other agreement for senior staff? Did you withhold any information from the remuneration committee?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

I ask you the same question that I asked the funding council earlier. As accountable officer, Mr Howells was in charge of making the merger succeed. Every party in the Parliament supported the merging of colleges—that goes without saying. Did the focus on the merger and the pr...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

So, even though he was told that he need not bother applying, that did not affect your quest for severance payments?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

So, because no one was getting anything out of the merger, you thought that there was nothing to gain there and you should just focus on the severance payments.

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

28 Oct 2015

Section 22 Report

The voluntary severance payments that your college paid out were £400,000 higher than the funding council’s recommendations. It recommended paying out £1.3 million and you paid out £1.7 million. The funding council has told us that it cannot apply any sanctions, because recou...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

So he requested a severance package—

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

On 28 January, you agreed to one month’s salary for each year, up to a maximum of 21 months. You also agreed to an extra three months’ pay for successfully taking the college through the merger—which the college opted out of two weeks later—plus another six months. If Mr Doyle...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

We have to establish the facts here. The Auditor General’s report talks about information being withheld, and the fact is that you came to a decision on the basis of the information that you had and the voluntary severance decision that you made was much more generous than it ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Was it John Gray who, in agreement with the principal, developed and put forward to you the principal’s severance package to which you agreed on 28 January?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

I have one more tiny question. My understanding is that the legal advice was that the decisions of the remuneration committee were legally binding on the college. Have you any idea why Roger Mullin from the Scottish Government, who was facilitating the merger process, sent an ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

I am asking the question because the Scottish Parliament information centre, the Parliament’s research unit, has highlighted that “The term ‘fraud’ is ... used to describe ... concealment of material facts” and “is usually used to describe the act of depriving a person of s...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Did you check that the severance payments to the principal were in line with his contract of employment? We have never seen the contract of employment, but I am assuming that you would have seen that as part of your audit.

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

04 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

I am very grateful—I think that it was important to get that on the record. I appreciate that you have listened to all the evidence that we have heard. Are you any clearer now about who developed the terms of the severance payments to Mr Doyle that were presented to the remun...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

You knew that, on vesting day, Coatbridge had a deficit of more than £1 million. The £400,000 additional—and very generous—severance payments contributed 40 per cent of that deficit. You were fully aware of that, but the advice that you gave was, “Yeah, it’s okay—we can find t...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Seven weeks later—okay. I am quite surprised that, although the severance that was due to you as a director of finance under the New College Lanarkshire scheme was for nine months, you were in fact paid for 13 months. You got a job seven weeks later, but your payment in lieu ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

So why were you paid four months’ more in severance pay than what you were due, in comparison with all the other payments?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Just let me finish. You say that you gave the advice to the chair—but we have already had the chair before us, sitting in the chair that you are in. We have also had the remuneration committee before us. The remuneration committee did not see that advice. When you talked to th...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Did you tell them that the Scottish funding council guidance on voluntary severance referred to an amount that was considerably less than—it was less than half of—what they were discussing for John Doyle?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

As HR director, did you not point out that they were making an agreement that has ended up with us all—including you—being here? As HR director, did you not point out that the voluntary severance guidance from the Scottish funding council referred to considerably less than wha...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Sorry, convener—I said that that would be my final question. You say that, when you came to look at the 2 per cent increase in pay for the ordinary members of staff at Coatbridge College, “The Chair said if the College acted in any other way”— than giving a 2 per cent incre...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Were you the two senior managers who were still in work at the end of March 2014 and who proposed that two senior managers receive a pay uplift of £4,000? Were business cases regarding the pay uplift and its inclusion in severance payments produced and considered by the remune...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

Did you sign confidentiality clauses as part of your severance agreements and, if so, why? I also want to ask you, Mrs Gunn, do you have, or did you have, any grievance actions against Coatbridge College following your departure?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

We have had written submissions and oral evidence from the remuneration committee, and it was certainly not aware of the SFC guidance. Some members of the remuneration committee said that they were not aware that any guidance existed. Six members of the committee appeared befo...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

There is an appendix 2 and an appendix 3 to the minutes of the 4 November 2013 meeting. Paragraph 3.1 of appendix 2 refers to “voluntary severance arrangements for senior staff which were not available for other staff and exceeded greatly the maximum reimbursement available ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

18 Nov 2015

Section 22 Report

There is quite a significant audit trail from Laurence Howells, which I will not go over again today, throughout October 2013, which was the month before the 4 November meeting. A couple of paragraphs down in appendix 3, the document says: “There followed some discussion on ...

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

Mr Gray, did I hear correctly that you said in your opening statement that John Doyle never asked for a severance package?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

Did you never discuss a severance package with John Doyle prior to the remuneration committee deliberations on 28 January 2013?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

Your letter to the remuneration committee asked for a meeting, and you even gave your home phone number. You stated in it: “If you are happy with the proposal that we offer John voluntary severance as outlined above ... I will of course ask Lorraine to convene a Remuneration ...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

Why then did you say in your opening statement in your letter that you had “talked to John at some length” and go on to recommend the severance package?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

In the same letter, which was all about a severance package, you started by saying that you had “talked to John at some length”. We will leave it there. We have the evidence and it will be for our report and for others to look over. Did you say to the remuneration committe...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

It is in the Auditor General’s report. We would be failing in our duty as the Public Audit Committee if we did not cover it. My next question is for John Doyle. As the accountable officer, why did you not inform the internal auditor or instruct the internal auditor to be info...

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

I do not want a big lecture; I want to know why you, as accountable officer, did not ensure that internal and external audit were aware of your severance package. Why did you not do that?

Mary Scanlon Con Committee

25 Nov 2015

Section 22 Reports

It has taken you a very long time—taking up a lot of our time—to talk about awareness and engagement, but you still have not answered the question, which was whether you, as accountable officer, assumed your responsibility and notified the internal and external auditors. You t...