Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 30 September 2010
30 Sep 2010 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education
I will give Murdo Fraser a statistic. When the charges that the Conservatives want to introduce in Scotland were introduced in Australia, participation in higher education by males from the poorest backgrounds decreased by 38 per cent. We already have a lack of equality in educational choice in Scotland. Reintroducing fees, whether up-front, top-up, deferred or whatever, would serve only to exacerbate existing inequalities. We want to open up opportunities, not close them down.
I agree with Murdo Fraser that we are nowhere near to where any of us wants us to be. That is why we need to have proper debates, and why we welcome the publication of the green paper and the continuing consideration of ways in which access to university education can be widened for all who are able to attain that level. We remain whole-heartedly committed to supporting social mobility through education.
Mike Russell was right: there is no silver bullet. Parental income should not be seen as a golden key to higher education. That is why we cannot follow the course that is being plotted by the Tory party and Labour, which want to see the reintroduction of fees in Scotland. Make no mistake: in spite of the improvements to student support and an end being put to tuition fees and the graduate endowment—the Liberal Democrats fought for those policies—Scotland’s students are still struggling. We can see that in NUS Scotland’s “Still in the Red” report.
We recognise that the findings of the Browne review of higher education funding south of the border and any subsequent UK actions will need to be considered by the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament in due course. However, until that review is published and we know the consequences for Scotland, we should not make substantial assumptions or jump to conclusions. We will not know exactly what financial circumstances we face until the comprehensive spending review is delivered and the Scottish budget is fully revealed. That is why we support the proposal to publish a green paper on the future of higher education funding by the end of the year. Whatever the findings, I am sure that the green paper will spark open and productive discussion. Crucially, I should add that we welcome the comments of the First Minister at First Minister’s question time last week on the green paper not including a return to tuition fees. We acknowledge, of course, the real problems that our higher education institutions are facing, and we are aware that there are issues, but we are not willing to pass the burden on to our young people as a tax on learning.
Scotland has a world-class and world-renowned higher education system. It is in our hands to ensure that we not only maintain that system, but improve it. We know that Labour’s recession has hit hard. Times are tough and cash is tight, but we need to protect and support our education system so that we can build on our existing excellence.
It is not only students who benefit from higher education; our economy is directly and indirectly boosted by good graduates, research funding and the attraction of business here because of such things. Graduates already tend to pay more tax because they tend to earn more. They pay a graduate contribution all their life if they are able and lucky enough to get the kind of salaries that most graduates get. Such salaries tend to be higher than those of dustbin men.
The Tories seem to think that they can regulate which degrees are economically useful and prioritise them. I am more inclined to agree with John F Kennedy, who suggested that we
“think of education as the means of developing our greatest abilities, because in each of us there is a private hope and dream which, fulfilled, can be translated into benefit for everyone and greater strength for our nation.”
At the Tory education conference, Liz Smith said:
“We start from the premise that the status quo for funding in Scotland is no longer tenable and that the decision taken by the Scottish Government to return to ‘free’ higher education was the wrong one.”
The Liberal Democrats disagree. We say that that is the wrong premise. We believe that lifting the burden of tuition fees and the graduate endowment was the right thing to do, and that it remains the right thing to do.
I move amendment S3M-7109.1, to leave out from “believes” to end and insert:
“welcomes that, thanks to the actions of the previous and current administrations in Scotland, full-time Scottish higher education students studying in Scotland pay neither tuition fees nor top-up fees; notes the ongoing Independent Review of Higher Education Funding and Student Finance in England and Wales; recognises that the Scottish Government will need to consider any outcomes of this review and the potential impact on Scottish universities, which have a global reputation for excellence, and welcomes the Scottish Government’s commitment to bring forward a green paper on higher education following publication of the review.”
09:54
I agree with Murdo Fraser that we are nowhere near to where any of us wants us to be. That is why we need to have proper debates, and why we welcome the publication of the green paper and the continuing consideration of ways in which access to university education can be widened for all who are able to attain that level. We remain whole-heartedly committed to supporting social mobility through education.
Mike Russell was right: there is no silver bullet. Parental income should not be seen as a golden key to higher education. That is why we cannot follow the course that is being plotted by the Tory party and Labour, which want to see the reintroduction of fees in Scotland. Make no mistake: in spite of the improvements to student support and an end being put to tuition fees and the graduate endowment—the Liberal Democrats fought for those policies—Scotland’s students are still struggling. We can see that in NUS Scotland’s “Still in the Red” report.
We recognise that the findings of the Browne review of higher education funding south of the border and any subsequent UK actions will need to be considered by the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament in due course. However, until that review is published and we know the consequences for Scotland, we should not make substantial assumptions or jump to conclusions. We will not know exactly what financial circumstances we face until the comprehensive spending review is delivered and the Scottish budget is fully revealed. That is why we support the proposal to publish a green paper on the future of higher education funding by the end of the year. Whatever the findings, I am sure that the green paper will spark open and productive discussion. Crucially, I should add that we welcome the comments of the First Minister at First Minister’s question time last week on the green paper not including a return to tuition fees. We acknowledge, of course, the real problems that our higher education institutions are facing, and we are aware that there are issues, but we are not willing to pass the burden on to our young people as a tax on learning.
Scotland has a world-class and world-renowned higher education system. It is in our hands to ensure that we not only maintain that system, but improve it. We know that Labour’s recession has hit hard. Times are tough and cash is tight, but we need to protect and support our education system so that we can build on our existing excellence.
It is not only students who benefit from higher education; our economy is directly and indirectly boosted by good graduates, research funding and the attraction of business here because of such things. Graduates already tend to pay more tax because they tend to earn more. They pay a graduate contribution all their life if they are able and lucky enough to get the kind of salaries that most graduates get. Such salaries tend to be higher than those of dustbin men.
The Tories seem to think that they can regulate which degrees are economically useful and prioritise them. I am more inclined to agree with John F Kennedy, who suggested that we
“think of education as the means of developing our greatest abilities, because in each of us there is a private hope and dream which, fulfilled, can be translated into benefit for everyone and greater strength for our nation.”
At the Tory education conference, Liz Smith said:
“We start from the premise that the status quo for funding in Scotland is no longer tenable and that the decision taken by the Scottish Government to return to ‘free’ higher education was the wrong one.”
The Liberal Democrats disagree. We say that that is the wrong premise. We believe that lifting the burden of tuition fees and the graduate endowment was the right thing to do, and that it remains the right thing to do.
I move amendment S3M-7109.1, to leave out from “believes” to end and insert:
“welcomes that, thanks to the actions of the previous and current administrations in Scotland, full-time Scottish higher education students studying in Scotland pay neither tuition fees nor top-up fees; notes the ongoing Independent Review of Higher Education Funding and Student Finance in England and Wales; recognises that the Scottish Government will need to consider any outcomes of this review and the potential impact on Scottish universities, which have a global reputation for excellence, and welcomes the Scottish Government’s commitment to bring forward a green paper on higher education following publication of the review.”
09:54
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
Good morning. The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S3M-7109, in the name of Elizabeth Smith, on higher education.09:15
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
On my plane journey from London to Edinburgh on Sunday, what should I find on the seat beside me but a copy of Scotland on Sunday and, in it, an article by t...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
LD
Not today.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
Perhaps not today.Now, I know that funny things can happen when the air is thinner at higher altitude, but I found myself having great difficulty with the ar...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)
Lab
I understand perfectly what the member says about autonomy and the need for universities to have academic freedom, but when we look at the excessive pay awar...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
It is an intervention, not a speech, Mr Henry.
Hugh Henry
Lab
Does she not agree that a greater degree of accountability is required of our universities?
Elizabeth Smith
Con
The member makes a good point. The Scottish Conservatives have argued strongly that there is need for restraint, but that is not the only issue in terms of w...
Mike Rumbles
LD
We have a good system that ensures that those who earn more money, however they get there and whether they have a degree or not, pay more tax. It is called i...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
We will come to why we reject a graduate tax, which I think is what the member is suggesting.Secondly, and crucially in my view, evidence from other countrie...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I think that I cannot; I am in my last minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
The member can do so if she wishes.
Rhona Brankin
Lab
I am interested in what the member says about the number of young people at university. Is it Conservative policy to reduce the percentage of young people wh...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
The member makes a good point, but there is an elephant in the room: what motivates young people to go to university? Those who go to university—who should b...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell)
SNP
I am very pleased that the Conservatives should choose to use their allocated time to bring the subject of the future of higher education in Scotland to the ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Michael Russell
SNP
No. I want to make progress.So, we have about 12 months to take this issue from where we are now—we are not at the beginning—through to a conclusion. That is...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Lab
When the joint future thinking task force was set up, why was it explicitly prohibited from talking about the future of university finance?
Michael Russell
SNP
Now we are in a situation, with the Browne review and the pressures on public finance as a result of Labour wrecking the economy, where we have to make some ...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I hear what the cabinet secretary says about the Scottish baccalaureate, but to date no university has offered a pupil a place on the basis of it.
Michael Russell
SNP
Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, the University of the West of Scotland and Abertay are supporting the new qualification. I spoke to Tim O’Shea just yesterday a...
Mike Rumbles
LD
Will the cabinet secretary explain the difference between a graduate contribution and a graduate fee?
Michael Russell
SNP
There is a very important difference, which I think is laid out rather well in the NUS briefing note for the debate. It should not be a deferred fee. That is...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to open the debate for Labour and thank the Conservatives for providing us with the opportunity to debate this important and pressing issue. Sin...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
Given the principles that Claire Baker has just outlined, is she prepared to put her cards on the table as to what form of contribution, tax or whatever she ...
Claire Baker
Lab
I very much respect the Conservatives’ proposal and the ideas that they are putting forward. Nevertheless, they must recognise the fact that there is no cons...
Mike Rumbles
LD
I asked the minister the question that I now put to the member. She mentioned a graduate contribution. In her view, what is the difference between a graduate...
Claire Baker
Lab
These are complex issues that we believe an independent review should examine in detail. They are issues that the UK Government—including the Liberals, who a...
Michael Russell
SNP
Will the member give way?