Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
13
Parties on record
2,354,908
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
16 Mar 2000
Health Boards and NHS Trusts (Public Consultation)
On behalf of the members of the Parliament's Health and Community Care Committee, I welcome the opportunity—Interruption. I welcome the opportunity to watch Iain Gray wreck the furniture and to open the first debate initiated by a subject committee. Members are a little sparse...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
22 Apr 2009
Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Time and again we have heard that the 2004 legislation is good in principle, but that the practice does not always match the spirit of the legislation or the intent of Parliament in passing it.It is clear to me, and probably to other committee members, that parents of children...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The Liberal Democrats support the bill, and particularly the inclusion in it of best practice on consultation on school closures. We accept that rural schools are likely to have a central role in the lives of rural communities. They are often crucial anchors for villages; they...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
We acknowledge that there is a great deal of good practice among councils throughout Scotland in relation to school closures. However, we all know that there are situations in which parents, parent councils and communities find it difficult to access the information that they ...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I make no apologies for ensuring that the committee returns to the important issue of additional support for learning, which I know we are all very much committed to. We have spent a great deal of time on additional support for learning, but I believe that the issue also merit...
Margaret Smith: LD Chamber
02 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but I think that there is a potential lack of clarity in the way in which those three criteria are set out, which makes it look as if the policy focuses mainly on rural schools. That takes into account what the cabinet secreta...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
08 Sep 2009
Subordinate Legislation
Those of us who were at the meeting with children's panel chairs and members last week heard the then chairmen's group chair—I believe that he has subsequently resigned—make that point. It would be nothing short of offensive to suggest that anybody around this table will be vi...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
22 Jan 2008
Subordinate Legislation
Good morning, cabinet secretary. I will make a comment before I ask my question. It is fair to say, from both this question session and last week's meeting, that all members of the committee want the system to be self-financing. We do not want the licensed trade to be subsidis...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
07 Jan 2009
National Qualifications
It is probably safe to say that none of us has read all 1,800 responses to the Government consultation. I have read enough to know that the majority welcome a fresh look at our national qualifications, albeit that many aspects of the proposals require greater clarity, a great ...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
19 Nov 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
As part of any school closure proposal, it is essential that education authorities ensure that parents, parent councils and others have access to information and get answers to their questions timeously and without recourse to freedom of information legislation.The Scottish ru...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
22 Apr 2009
Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I shall address some of the points that have been raised on my amendment 25. I share a certain amount of common ground with Kenny Gibson—that may not happen on many occasions today. My amendment 25 seeks to pick up on HMIE's concerns about consultation, and concerns that were ...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
01 Sep 2009
Public Services Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I want to pick up on the issue of consultation. Usually, people from bill teams or organisations who come before us have been able to look at formal consultation exercises that have been undertaken, and to see what has happened as a result of that consultation and what kind of...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
We are faced with a difficult decision. It could be argued that six weeks is not an adequate length of time: thinking ahead to my amendments on access to information, I believe that, in some cases, people will struggle to put together responses to a proposal paper in six weeks...
The Convener: LD Committee
08 Mar 2000
Arbuthnott Report
Item 5 is our old friend, the Arbuthnott report. It has been some time since we made our submission in the course of the Executive's consultation exercise.For the sake of people who may have forgotten what the report is all about, it concerns the funding allocation for the nat...
The Convener: LD Committee
18 Sep 2002
NHS Boards (Consultation)
Agenda item 3 concerns NHS boards' consultation processes. Members will recall that the committee agreed to hear evidence about NHS consultation as a result of several petitions on the subject and our previous inquiries into Stobhill and Stracathro, which was the subject of th...
The Convener: LD Committee
18 Sep 2002
NHS Boards (Consultation)
I will play devil's advocate and present the flip side of that. Other health boards have put out to consultation much more woolly plans and said, "We are not really sure what we want to do, but here are four or five options". In fact, written submissions to the Health and Comm...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
23 Jun 2009
Forth Replacement Crossing
As a preamble to my question, let me make the slight observation that what I have just heard does not square with what I hear on the doorsteps in my constituency from people who are directly affected by the project. You have explained the consultation process. It is fine to ti...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
23 Jun 2009
Forth Replacement Crossing
You described the process as "consultation; engineering; reconsultation". I presume that the work of recent weeks has been to do with reconsultation on the changes that were made as a result of the consultation in January. People say that they are being told in meetings that t...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
18 Nov 2004
Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak in what is obviously an evolving debate on the future of the fire and rescue services in Scotland. I echo colleagues' tributes to the men and women who work in the services. As I am not a member of the Justice 2 Committee, I hope that members...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
19 Nov 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill
Murdo Fraser was right to say that there are many people to thank and that the bill has many parents—that is one of the few times that he has not espoused the centrality of the nuclear family. I thank the people who gave evidence to the committee, in particular Sandy Longmuir ...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
That just proves that if you hang on in there long enough, you get something in the end.I am very heartened by the comments from the cabinet secretary and other committee members. I have certainly sought to approach the issue of omissions in the most constructive and effective...
Mrs Smith: LD Committee
30 Jan 2001
Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I want to return to consultation. The bill provides for a statutory duty on local authorities and registered social landlords to consult tenants and organisations that represent tenants. Sometimes such consultation is easier in a geographic area. A group of tenants can be iden...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
28 Oct 2003
Civil Partnership Registration
Under paragraph 5.4 in the consultation document, the Executive states a belief that same-sex couples in Scotland registering their partnership should have access to"a comprehensive package of rights and responsibilities in devolved areas that largely mirrors those available t...
The Convener: LD Committee
07 Jun 2000
Petitions
I share the view of many members of the committee. An on-going consultation process is under way. I welcome the fact that the period has been extended after requests from MSPs and the general public. The committee has a good record of taking a strategic view of issues such as ...
The Convener: LD Committee
26 Sep 2001
Contacts
Okay. We will revisit that offer in the future. As committee members know, from day one the Health and Community Care Committee has taken the position that it will not always look at the local aspects of the acute services reviews that are taking place around the country. We a...
The Convener: LD Committee
22 May 2002
Petitions
Agenda item 3 is our regular petitions report. The first petition is PE453, which is from Fr Stephen Dunn and calls on the Scottish Parliament to carry out a full review of the process of consultation with local communities regarding the siting of the proposed secure unit in t...
The Convener: LD Committee
22 May 2002
Petitions
We have made a decision on the oral evidence on the Glasgow situation. Would it be worth the committee's while to make a general call for written evidence on the wider issue of general consultation on the health service? I know that time is against us, but people might feel at...
The Convener: LD Committee
18 Sep 2002
NHS Boards (Consultation)
I will stop you there. Decisions about Scottish health are taken in the Scottish Parliament by the Scottish minister and the Scottish Executive. To some extent—when we are successful—they are taken by the Health and Community Care Committee. The only thing that Westminster agr...
The Convener: LD Committee
18 Sep 2002
NHS Boards (Consultation)
The discussion is straying into the acute services review—although, in their written submission, the witnesses did give examples of how they were improving acute services. I have allowed a little leeway, but I want us to concentrate on the consultation exercises. Nicola Sturge...
The Convener: LD Committee
18 Sep 2002
NHS Boards (Consultation)
Okay. Are you generally satisfied with the consultation processes that were conducted by boards and trusts on service reconfiguration? Does the Executive believe that the consultation processes that led to the Dunfermline and Stobhill decisions were satisfactory?
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
17 Dec 2003
Civil Partnership Registration
I will not take up too much time, but I would like record my thanks, and those of Marlyn Glen, to the clerks for their work on the paper.Section 7 shows the devolved matters that will be handled in a complex Sewel motion. As things stand, we do not know when we will get the mo...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
15 Jan 2008
Subordinate Legislation
We all received representations from the trade, including from the Scottish Beer and Pub Association. For my part, putting those issues to one side, I am concerned about the way in which the matter has been handled. The regulations were laid at the 11th hour. In effect, the co...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
22 Jan 2008
Subordinate Legislation
Councils have been asked a simple question: what will the system cost you? They gave one set of figures, which formed the basis of the consultation document that the Scottish Government sent out. People then responded on the basis of the consultation document, and local author...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
29 Jan 2008
Justice and Home Affairs in Europe
I agree about the divorce regulation.Paragraph 18 says:"The Reform Treaty covers a number of devolved matters … but neither the UK Government's white paper on the Reform Treaty nor the Explanatory Memorandum made reference to consultation with the devolved administrations, min...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
31 Jan 2007
New Petitions
John Farquhar Munro gets to the nub of the issue. If bus companies wish to change or cut services, they must take particular steps. Councils, the traffic commissioner and others are involved.I will give one other recent example from my constituency that involved the need to cl...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
13 Dec 2001
Cancer Services<br />(West of Scotland)
I apologise to Nicola Sturgeon for missing the first part of her speech this morning.On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I say that I share everyone's concern at the situation. The Beatson centre provides more than half of Scotland's cancer services, covering not only...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
14 Jan 2004
Sexual Health and <br />Relationship Strategy
I welcome the chance to speak in this debate, which has been rich, powerful, diverse and positive—as befits a debate on sexual health and sexual activity. I was moved by some of Susan Deacon's comments in her positive and powerful speech. She said that the debate is about huma...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
29 Apr 2004
Reducing Reoffending
I agree with a great deal of what has been said already. It is absolutely crucial that we tackle the key problem of reoffending, which is a blight on all our communities and which, one way or another, affects every family in the country.One thing that we can agree on is that t...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
07 Dec 2005
Joint Inspection of Children's Services and Inspection of Social Work Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Although I am not a member of the Education Committee, a local general practitioner has raised concerns with me on the amount of consultation that took place before the legislation was introduced. I noted that, in its report, the committee asked for the protocol to be open to ...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
25 Jan 2006
Abolition of NHS Prescription Charges (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. I welcome the work that has been done by the Health Committee, Colin Fox's bill—which has engendered this spirited debate—and the consultation that was unveiled by the Executive this morning.The key points at the hea...
Margaret Smith: LD Chamber
21 Sep 2006
Edinburgh Airport Rail Link Bill: Preliminary Stage
Just wait.The project is challenging and the committee rightly said that it wants to hear more evidence on a number of issues. It also highlighted the importance of decisions that are not in the promoter's hands, including the provision of rolling stock that is fit for purpose...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
20 Dec 2006
Removing Barriers and Creating Opportunities
Before I begin my remarks on behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I welcome Dr Jones's comments on diversity and his previous remarks on this important issue.It gives me no great pleasure to open the debate. This slot should have been taken by Cathy Peattie, the conven...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Chamber
04 Dec 2008
Forced Marriages
This has been an important debate about a sensitive issue. Bashir Ahmad was right to say that one forced marriage is one too many.I thank all those who have assisted people who are affected by forced marriage, whether through the voluntary sector, the FCO's forced marriage uni...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD) LD Chamber
26 May 2010
Forth Crossing Bill: Stage 1
I thank the bill committee for its work and welcome its comments on noise and vibration levels and construction and working times, even though I do not share its views on some of the other issues that are raised in its report.As the constituency member for Edinburgh West and s...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
15 Nov 2005
“Scottish Executive: supporting new initiatives”
The next thing I want to say is more of a comment than a question. You can probably tell from my colleagues' questions that our concerns are about the community impact of initiatives. You have talked about balance, distortion and identifying need, but I want to put on record t...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
06 May 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
If a large body of people was opposed to a decision, ministers would look for evidence that the consultation had been properly conducted and that concerns had been addressed. They would not be seeking to rerun the process.
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
20 May 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Moira Niven has touched on the issue of consultation with staff. As Lindsay Glasgow will know, I have had experience of school closures—other members will have had experience of them, too—and I recognise that staff are often put in an invidious position. They may have their ow...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
20 May 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The City of Edinburgh Council raised concerns about the transitional arrangements in the bill, which may require on-going consultations to be suspended when the bill commences. The council argues that some authorities may have to begin the consultation process again, which I a...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
30 Sep 2009
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There is absolutely no disagreement among us about the importance of rural schools in rural communities. None of us doubts what the impact will be of closing a rural school. The cabinet secretary eloquently outlined the impact in the loss of staff, jobs and community facilitie...
Margaret Smith: LD Committee
28 Oct 2003
Civil Partnership Registration
My next question is more general and is about the section on Scots family law in paragraph 6.36 of the consultation document—we probably have great screeds of Scots law covered in single paragraphs. Do you feel that the consultation document provides enough detail when it disc...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD Committee
11 Nov 2003
Civil Partnership Registration
Concern has been expressed by a number of witnesses and members about the Executive's decision to take the Westminster, or Sewel route, on this issue. There are questions about the level of scrutiny that will be applied to the legislation for devolved areas. Will you clarify f...
The Convener: LD Committee
26 Oct 1999
Arbuthnott Report
The way in which health care and health services in Scotland are moving, with an increasing shift to primary and community care, makes it more likely that that will happen.One concern that I have—although I do not know how the situation could have been avoided—is that the repo...
The Convener: LD Committee
08 Mar 2000
Convener's Report
The heading "Convener's Report" is something of a catchall, but the main piece of business that it covers concerns our recent report on Stobhill hospital. It was generally well received and was a good piece of work by all committee members and particularly by Richard Simpson.M...
The Convener: LD Committee
08 Nov 2000
Public Sector Ombudsman
We come to the final item that will be taken in public, after which we will have a short break before continuing in private.We are to consider a report entitled "Modernising the Complaints System—Consultation on Public Sector Ombudsmen in Scotland". The introduction and backgr...
The Convener: LD Committee
12 Dec 2000
Complaints System (Public Sector Ombudsmen)
Given the time of year, we have to deal with the issue of timing. To fit into the consultation process, our response to the paper must be finalised at the committee meeting on 10 January. We can find out whether we can put that back by a week—I do not think that that will kill...
The Convener: LD Committee
10 Jan 2001
Complaints System (Public Sector Ombudsmen)
At the Local Government Committee, Angus MacKay said that the consultation responses would be taken on board and that detailed proposals would then be drawn up in the spring before being subjected to further consultation. At that point, further work will be done with a view to...
The Convener: LD Committee
24 Jan 2001
Regulation of Care (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We move now to today's first group of witnesses in our stage 1 consideration of the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Bill. First up are the witnesses from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. I welcome Councillor Miller, Mr McLeary and Mr Wiseman to the meeting.During st...
The Convener: LD Committee
14 Feb 2001
Regulation of Care (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
At stage 1 of our legislative process, we are meant to do two things: first, to consider the bill in general, to decide whether the bill is necessary and to decide whether we agree with it; secondly, to say whether we believe that the arrangements that have been made for consu...
The Convener: LD Committee
26 Sep 2001
Contacts
If I remember correctly, the briefing was to be as much about the manner of the consultation as about how the review is progressing. Committee members were concerned about how Greater Glasgow Health Board had dealt with the situation at Stobhill hospital and at other hospitals...
The Convener: LD Committee
06 Mar 2002
Petitions
PE370 is from Lydia Reid on behalf of Scottish Parents for a Public Enquiry into Organ Retention. In December 2001, the Health and Community Care Committee agreed to note the petition and to await the outcome of the Scottish Executive consultation on the findings of the indepe...
← Back to list
Chamber

Plenary, 16 Mar 2000

16 Mar 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Health Boards and NHS Trusts (Public Consultation)
On behalf of the members of the Parliament's Health and Community Care Committee, I welcome the opportunity—[Interruption.] I welcome the opportunity to watch Iain Gray wreck the furniture and to open the first debate initiated by a subject committee. Members are a little sparse on the ground this morning. There must be something going on somewhere else. We all know about that.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to our committee clerks and to our researcher for their hard work and input into the committee's work to date, which I will outline. I pay tribute also to the tremendous contribution of MSPs of all parties to the committee. In the months and years to come, the committee will play a significant role in the improvement of health services in Scotland.

It is significant and a sign of the changing political climate in the country and in the health service that we have decided to initiate a debate on accountability and consultation. The debate should and must send a clear signal that a new light of scrutiny must fall across the work of the health service. The debate must place the rights of patients at its heart.

During recent months, the committee has become increasingly concerned that, despite reassuring words in Government document after Government document over many years, people still feel that their voices are not being heard by health boards, health trusts, professionals and politicians. People believe that we have a national health service in which clinical voices will always be heard above lay voices. They believe it is a service in which, historically, the culture is one of secrecy rather than of openness; in which managers would rather hide information from the public and the media than engage with them to improve the quality of care; in short, that we have a secret service.

We all know the benefits of consultation. Indeed, in the debate earlier this morning, we heard that even this Parliament does not always get things right. I am sure that my committee colleagues will agree that we still have a lot to learn about how to consult bodies in the health service on the committee's work. Nevertheless, the Parliament seeks to engage in effective consultation with those bodies.

One of the key aims of the consultative steering group was to make the Parliament open and accountable and, through it, to make others more accountable to the public. The committee will play its part in that wider vision in several ways: through taking written and oral evidence; through meeting and listening to individuals, groups and statutory bodies; through visits to health and community care services throughout Scotland, beginning with our review of community care; and through working in innovative ways with users, carers and patients.

Our role includes scrutiny of the Executive's legislation and health budget and investigation of major areas of local and national concern. We have already called several boards, trusts and others to give evidence to the committee and to be scrutinised by us. It is likely that by the end of this first parliamentary session, each and every health board in Scotland will have been called to give evidence to us publicly about the state of the health service across the country.

The Public Petitions Committee plays a crucial role in making us more accessible. The committee, which acts as a public gatekeeper to our parliamentary procedures and processes, has passed two petitions to the Health and Community Care Committee that I want to mention in relation to the need for greater accountability and better consultation in the health service.

The first petition, which had 25,000 signatures, was presented by the Stracathro staff action committee. It highlighted concerns about the possible closure of the Stracathro district general hospital in Brechin. The second petition was presented earlier this year by the Glasgow North Action Group and concerns the proposed siting of a medium secure unit in the grounds of Stobhill general hospital in Glasgow. The motion refers to the first of those petitions, but the concerns of the committee outlined in the motion relate to both, and to a wider range of anecdotal comment that we have received.

It is perhaps useful at this stage to mention to colleagues that committee members have taken the view—and will probably continue to do so—that although petitions may refer to local services and situations, the role of the Health and Community Care Committee should be to take a national view and to learn strategic lessons from local examples. It should not be for us to deliver or overturn local decisions.

The committee decided, as part of our Stracathro report, to focus on communication and consultation with patients, staff and the wider communities of Angus and the Mearns, as well as on other aspects of the management of hospital resources. It became clear from the evidence that we took that there had been faults in the consultation process, including a failure to hold public meetings in key areas, and a poor standard of communication between Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, its predecessor trust, Tayside Health Board, patients and concerned groups. Critically, there was a failure to work in partnership with staff. We found that staff had been inadequately consulted and had found out about closures and changes through the media. Their morale and recruitment problems had worsened because of continuing uncertainty.

Compare that with the warm words of the new human resource strategy, "Towards a new way of working":

"we need to ensure that . . . as change impacts on employment and jobs, an employee relations framework is created which gives staff the opportunity of real consultation, involvement and the ability to influence decision making".

The Health and Community Care Committee agrees with that whole-heartedly, but has expressed its concern at the difference between that aspiration and the way in which hard-working, dedicated professional staff had been treated at Stracathro. We recommended that the board's and trust's non-compliance with the terms and spirit of that strategy should be investigated by the Executive in the accountability review of boards and trusts. We recommended that staff at all levels should be consulted timeously at all stages of the acute services review in Tayside.

The thousands of men and women who staff our health service are its backbone and they should be treated with respect. It is obvious that that means decent pay and conditions, training, educational opportunities, family-friendly and safe working conditions and decent environments in which to work; it also means that they must be encouraged to make an early input into any discussions about service changes and new initiatives.

We can improve the quality of our health services by working in partnership with staff at all levels, listening to their concerns and channelling their expertise. Many of our concerns that arise from our examination of the situation in Tayside have been heightened by the latest petition concerning Stobhill. We have been led to make a series of key recommendations.

I am sure that my colleagues, particularly the Health and Community Care Committee's reporter, Richard Simpson, will wish to comment in greater detail on the complex situation there. I wish to highlight a few of our recommendations and then move on to the wider picture.

The fact that the health service is lacking clear guidance on proper and effective consultation has been highlighted. Despite our finding the consultative process of Greater Glasgow Health Board to be flawed, we are bound to note that it has gone further than it is required to do to fulfil its statutory obligations. The sad truth is that there are no guidelines advising health boards that they have to inform, engage with and consult staff and the general public about new proposals, such as the new medium secure unit, or the walk-in, walk-out ambulatory care and diagnostic unit, which is planned for the same site.

Whereas there are no guidelines for consultation on new service provision, the guidelines for consultation on the change of use or closure of facilities are 25 years old—older than Duncan Hamilton, a member of the Health and Community Care Committee. Much of what is in the management executive letter from 1975 is good. It tells boards to consult all bodies with a valid interest and gives some examples—health councils, staff associations, local authorities and MPs—but it falls silent on the wider needs of the public at large and leaves it to boards to determine the necessary range of consultation. That is just not good enough these days. There is no excuse for a modern-day health service to be guided by such archaic rules. That is why we have asked the Executive to deal with the concerns as a matter of urgency, to draw up guidelines and to instruct health boards to draw up interim consultation programmes immediately.

Given the Executive's commitment in "Designed to care" to create a partnership between patients and the professionals who care for them by giving both a bigger say in the design and management of the national health service, I hope that the Executive will embrace our suggestions.

Over the years, successive Governments have published a range of booklets and other publications that outline the need for consultation. That on the closure and change of use of health service premises, the code of practice on openness in the NHS, "Designed to care", "Towards a new way of working", "Consulting Consumers" and the carers strategy are just a few of them.

However, rather than being at the heart of the consultation process, the public have often been treated as an afterthought or an inconvenience. Too often, the practice on the ground is different from the aspiration in the policy document. Some health professionals desperately want to engage with the public, their patients, but do not know how to. We should not underestimate the fear factor. Consultation and accountability are not easy. We, of all people, should know that.

There should be a clear strategy and clear guidelines that cover the minimum levels of consultation and give examples of best practice. Clinicians, for so long treated by so many as some form of deity, will have to engage with the public, but we cannot expect them to do so effectively without proper training and guidance. Further, we cannot expect health service bodies to do so without the relevant back-up and financial support from the centre to make representative participation a reality.

If we are serious about involving patients more in decisions about health care, either at the level of their own treatment or at the level of local service provision, they must have access to good information. If we are serious about planning and delivering services from the perspective of patients, we must involve them and give them the tools to make effective contributions. Without proper information, patients will either uncritically defer to the views of professionals or make ill-thought-out, nimbyesque decisions that fail to consider the full picture of service provision.

Provided with accessible and appropriate information, patients are a valuable asset. The Scottish Consumer Council is right to point out that service providers have much to learn from consumers, who are an expert resource. Knowledge of people's experience of illness, disability and using the health service is invaluable. We must all be honest enough to acknowledge that, sometimes, even the best consultation process will result in hard choices having to be made and people being disappointed. There will be times when we will have a responsibility to step back and see the wider picture. Everyone has that responsibility—health service managers, professionals, members of the media, politicians and patients.

If we want to have a better-informed patient base, we must find ways of engaging in continuing consultation and involvement, and not just have one-off meetings in public halls. The service's consultation techniques must evolve to make use of new technologies. There must be a move away from traditional public meetings towards the use of citizens juries, quantitative surveys, carers and users groups, road shows, stakeholder conferences and so on.

At all times, the changing health service must try to retain public confidence. Of course, that confidence will be built by greater funding and better services, but it will also be built by more openness, through measures such as the Freedom of Information Bill, and greater accountability. At the moment, the accountability of health boards, trusts and health councils can be called into question because of the democratic deficit. In our Stobhill recommendations, we ask the Executive to consider options to address that deficit, either through the direct election of health commissioners to the bodies or through the involvement on those bodies of local elected representatives such as councillors or MSPs.

The Executive has a crucial part to play in modernising the system of public appointments to NHS bodies. I am happy to say that that is being taken seriously. It is critical that public appointments are made on merit and are not just jobs for the boys—I use that term advisedly—or political appointments. It is essential that we get the right people in the right place at the right time and that we widen the range of people serving on those powerful bodies. I believe that there is a role for parliamentary scrutiny of those appointments and favour some form of pre-appointment scrutiny, possibly by parliamentary committees.

Scotland's health councils are the only publicly led statutory organisation representing patients and have a right to be consulted on service changes. That puts them in a powerful position. While we acknowledge that they do a great deal of good work, we retain concerns about their funding and the fact that council members are partly appointed by the health board, which might call into question their independence.

Health councils and elected representatives could play a stronger role in terms of scrutiny and accountability by, for example, attending the annual accountability review to comment on boards' performances in relation to, say, public involvement. Currently, the management executive holds health boards accountable for their performance at an annual accountability review meeting that covers many other subjects. Health councils are now asked to comment on health board performance, but are given only a short time in which to do so and are not invited to attend the private review meeting.

Public involvement must be regarded as an integral part of the health service in the acute and primary care sectors. In primary and community care, well-thought-through patient involvement may have the most significant impact in the creation and development of local health board care co-operatives and other new service developments. There must be a place for patient and user input to ensure that the services that are delivered are what patients need.

Many of the public involvement issues of recent years have arisen through the decommissioning of long-stay facilities and the move towards care in the community, along with the impact of acute services reviews. Although changes to acute services are always more likely to generate petitions and public concern, the voluntary sector and others are right to be concerned about funding issues, equity issues—such as postcode prescribing—and issues that arise from care in the community.

The onus is now on us to lead an honest debate on what the NHS can and cannot afford. The onus is on our citizens to decide whether they want to pay for health services through taxation, through increased taxation or by other means. Only last week, Dr John Garner of the British Medical Association said that it is time for the Government to admit to rationing in the NHS and for the general public to engage in a debate on what the NHS should offer. There is a role for all of us in that debate.

In placing the rights of the patient at centre stage in this first committee debate, I would like to end my speech on the subject on which I began, by stating the Health and Community Care Committee's commitment to open and accountable government at all levels of health care. We will monitor the Executive's response to our work on this matter and, through our continuing work, seek to consult and engage with patients and professionals throughout Scotland.

The committee is part of a new multidisciplinary health force that will improve health care in Scotland. We are determined to play our part to the best of our abilities. The latest priorities and planning guidance for the NHS says that the NHS should give renewed impetus to its efforts to involve patients in the planning and delivery of care and should respond positively to their views and preferences.

I commend to Parliament the Health and Community Care Committee's report into Stracathro and our on-going work as examples of our commitment to placing patient care and involvement at the heart of our health service and to tearing down any remaining vestiges of the veil from the secret service that is—or was—our health service.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the concerns of the Health and Community Care Committee, in relation to the accountability of health boards and NHS Trusts and notes the need for a new approach to public consultation as illustrated in the recent and ongoing work of the Committee, and in this connection the Parliament notes the 9th Report, 1999 by the Committee, Report on Stracathro Petition PE13 (SP Paper 48).

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-656, in the name of Mrs Margaret Smith, on behalf of the Health and Community Care Committee, on health b...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
On behalf of the members of the Parliament's Health and Community Care Committee, I welcome the opportunity—Interruption. I welcome the opportunity to watch ...
The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Lab
I welcome this opportunity to address the Parliament and I thank the Health and Community Care Committee for raising these important issues. Several importan...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): Lab
The minister's comments are welcome, but will he accept that there are still grounds for concern? For example, I heard a representative of the health council...
Iain Gray: Lab
Indeed, and the next thing I wanted to say is that there are no grounds for complacency. We are at the beginning of a process of continuous improvement—I may...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): SNP
Does the Executive have any proposals to substantiate that assertion about health boards not being able to carry on as a secret service—proposals that would ...
Iain Gray: Lab
We are reviewing the system of NHS governance and looking at performance indicators and related measures of accountability. Public engagement will be judged....
Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): SNP
The minister says that no decisions have yet been made about the future of Stracathro. How does he explain the cuts and closures that have taken place? Do th...
Iain Gray: Lab
I repeat the point that the delivery of services and the balance between access and appropriate high-quality services are the substance of the acute services...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
This feels a bit like being in "Dad's Army". We are left to guard the home front while the rest are off at war.This Parliament first sat a mere five weeks af...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
I am delighted to serve on the Health and Community Care Committee, where we tend to leave our political hats at the door and put health at the centre of the...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): Lab
Is the member suffering from selective amnesia? The Health and Community Care Committee is trying to overturn the secrecy that her party imposed on the natio...
Mary Scanlon: Con
That is exactly the type of intervention that is not helpful. In the spirit of openness and accountability, we have to accept what each person says, because ...
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
As long as it is truthful.
Mary Scanlon: Con
Yes, as long as it is truthful. An acknowledgement of the truth would be helpful.
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD) rose— LD
Mary Scanlon: Con
I hope I will get more time if I take interventions.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
Indeed.
Ian Jenkins: LD
The member mentioned making a row in an empty house. I think that she is doing quite a good job of making a row in a half-empty house.
Mary Scanlon: Con
I like to cause a rammie whatever house I am in, as long as someone else is there to engage in it.Six mechanisms of encouraging participation are outlined in...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): Lab
Presiding Officer, I hope that you will consider setting a precedent, whereby those who have acted as reporters to committees have a little latitude when spe...
Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): SNP
Dr Simpson's clear, logical analysis shines a bright light on dark, secretive areas of decision making in Scotland. That is exactly what this Parliament shou...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): Lab
As a member of the Health and Community Care Committee, and having heard the evidence that was presented during the Stracathro inquiry, I am angry that direc...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Margaret Smith and the Health and Community Care Committee on the report and on having secured the opportunity to debate the matter in prime p...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): LD
Although located near Brechin in Angus, Stracathro hospital has for many years served the people of the Mearns, in my constituency of West Aberdeenshire and ...
Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): Lab
On a positive note, I thank Margaret Smith for her kind words about the Public Petitions Committee. As the convener of that committee, I am happy to bask in ...
Mr Swinney: SNP
Does Mr McAllion accept that Tayside Health Board has been there throughout the process, and that it was not doing anything about Stracathro in its overall m...
Mr McAllion: Lab
Of course I accept that—but Tayside Health Board has had to work within the financial constraints that are placed on it by this Parliament and which were pre...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
Consultation consists of two parts: talking to people and listening to what they say. That simple fact has largely eluded most health authorities for years, ...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): Lab
I welcome the opportunity to exchange horror stories about Stracathro and Greater Glasgow Health Board. Primarily, I want to touch on the issue of Stobhill h...