Committee
Communities Committee, 08 Oct 2003
08 Oct 2003 · S2 · Communities Committee
Item of business
Budget Process 2004-05
There are two points. The first is that the community engagement money, which is separate from the SIP budget, has been substantially increased. It could be argued that community engagement is a core task for SIPs. SIPs would say that ensuring that community representatives are involved and that there is sophisticated community engagement, which takes different forms in different places, is a core task. We have just budgeted for that task differently, mainly because I did not want the community engagement budget to be eaten up by being in the general SIP budget. I wanted to ensure that community engagement was funded separately so that it could happen. Providing a separate budget for community engagement was my way of making that happen. That approach is directly my fault and my responsibility because I wanted community engagement to happen. Therefore, I would argue that there is an increase in the SIP budget for that core task.Secondly, I acknowledge that we need a more comprehensive framework and a more joined-up approach for community involvement, linking it to regeneration, which is essentially what much of the SIPs' task is about. The fact that we are taking community involvement into the community planning framework is a recognition of the need for a joined-up approach. One of the frustrations of the SIP budget is that SIPs cannot be left on their own to regenerate communities and tackle the improvement of local services in communities. The SIPs are a vital lever in the process, but they cannot be the only ones doing that work. Even if we put £10 million into the SIP budget year on year, that would not eat into the challenges that we face. The other big partners who are at the community planning table now should also be contributing to the process. On your final point about how we measure, there are robust systems of accountability for the management of SIP moneys and for what SIPs achieve, which they are now required to list. We are just about to go through that process again; I think that that is called the transition framework, which is another user-friendly term. A SIP must make specific measurements and follow certain directions, but then they must respond in terms of specific outcomes. Ian Mitchell can perhaps add to what I have said.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
The next item is our consideration of the budget process for 2004-05. I welcome Margaret Curran MSP, the Minister for Communities, and her officials, who are...
The Minister for Communities (Ms Margaret Curran):
Lab
Thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee. This is the first formal session that we have had—I hope that we will have many more. I look for...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I hope that I, too, will be constructive in my comments. This is my first year of scrutinising the budget, which I have found difficult, and I seek clarifica...
Ms Curran:
Lab
I appreciate the tone that you are taking. Simplifying financial arrangements is not an easy task, so communicating the complexity of our budgets will always...
Mike Neilson (Scottish Executive Development Department):
I appreciate that the section that deals with regenerating communities has significant changes. That reflects three main points. One is the decision to deal ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
It would be helpful if, when you change the budget for next year, you could include footnotes to explain where the intended spending has gone and what the re...
Ms Curran:
Lab
There has been no change in emphasis or policy. When we passed the two pieces of legislation that relate to homelessness—the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 and ...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
I am glad to see that you made it back from the islands, minister.I am sure that you remember that last year's Social Justice Committee stage 2 report on the...
Ms Curran:
Lab
There are a number of ways of tackling that and we are making efforts in that regard. I would not pretend that we have solved that problem, as it is quite di...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
The committee has heard criticisms from organisations such as Shelter Scotland and the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland that even those professiona...
Ms Curran:
Lab
I agree entirely with that. We have nothing to hide—on the contrary, we have a good story to tell about the resources that we are committing to ensure that t...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
To develop the theme further, when we consider the budget, it is inevitable that we talk about spending, but actually we are not interested in spending at al...
Ms Curran:
Lab
In a sense, we are trying to do that. You are absolutely right that the spending should follow the policy outcome that we are trying to achieve. That is why,...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I will develop my question by focusing on targets 2, 5, 9 and 12. I do not have a detailed question about those specific targets, but I have a question about...
Ms Curran:
Lab
Oh dear.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
It is about how the Executive understands whether it is delivering. I think ministers, as well as Opposition politicians, get frustrated about that. Is there...
Ms Curran:
Lab
I did not realise that we were comrades-in-arms, Stewart. I think that my officials would agree that that is the kind of approach that I am likely to take. A...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I suspect that we agree vigorously, minister. I suggest that there should be a named individual whose career is on the line precisely because the matter is n...
Ms Curran:
Lab
I have to say that I think that my career would suffer more than anyone else's. I am sympathetic to the idea of accountability. We are obviously dependent on...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
That is clearly correct at a policy level, but at an operational level there will be no accountability unless there is a named person. You accept that.
Ms Curran:
Lab
Yes.
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Do you agree that we will really understand the relationship between expenditure and Executive targets—which on homelessness, for example, cross not just you...
Ms Curran:
Lab
That is interesting—there has been some movement in that direction. For example, on antisocial behaviour, Cathy Jamieson, Peter Peacock and I have a shared f...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I have a supplementary on that point. Stewart Stevenson mentioned measurable targets, but I am struggling with targets that are more difficult to measure—for...
Ms Curran:
Lab
There is a lot in that question. To some extent, terms such as inclusion and equality are relative and value based—my definition of social inclusion might be...
The Convener:
Lab
The communities budget is forecast to rise by 8.5 per cent between 2003-04 and 2005-06, while the Executive budget as a whole will increase by 12.3 per cent....
Ms Curran:
Lab
Part of the answer to that is what Mike Neilson said earlier—if I can remember what he said—about the fact that some items have, in effect, been moved out of...
Mike Neilson:
There are two points to be made on that. The first is that numbers have changed since "Building a Better Scotland"; they have changed because certain priorit...
The Convener:
Lab
We could say that it was not low in spending terms, but it is low as a share of the budget as a whole. If those things are happening in this budget, they mus...
Ms Curran:
Lab
The general point is that the health budget has, as Mike Neilson said, grown more than other budgets, but we are in tune with the general level of spend apar...