Chamber
Plenary, 05 Dec 2001
05 Dec 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Gypsy Travellers and Public Sector Policies
I will do what I can, Presiding Officer, but I make no promises.
This has been a good debate. On behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I thank all members who took part in it. Most of all, I echo Kate MacLean's thanks to those who contributed to the committee's inquiry.
It is fair to say that the Scottish Parliament is subject to what we might call the media knocking copy and not recognising the good work that is done by members of the Parliament in its committees. As Jamie Stone pointed out, the Equal Opportunities Committee inquiry into Gypsy Travellers is a fine example of the Parliament's accessibility. The inquiry shows the ability of the committee system to react to issues that are raised by members of the public.
As members have heard, we spent nine months taking written and oral evidence from a wide range of organisations and individuals. I am sure that I speak for all committee members when I say that our visits to the nine local authority sites most informed our deliberations. I give the committee's thanks to the Gypsy Traveller community throughout Scotland for its courtesy and hospitality during our visits.
The committee's report covers the broad policy areas of education, culture, health, social services, accommodation, policing and criminal justice. All those areas have been covered during today's debate. On education, Kate MacLean spoke of the young Gypsy Travellers who so impressed us when they gave evidence on their experiences of the education system. They told us of bullying and of teachers who treated them differently from other children. In an eloquent speech, Elaine Smith also spoke of Gypsy Travellers' problems in accessing education and of the seeming inability of the education system to adapt the curriculum to embrace the Gypsy Traveller culture. Irene McGugan urged that there should be flexibility in the education system and gave us some examples of current good practice. Rhona Brankin spoke of the bullying and name-calling that Gypsy Traveller children have suffered over many generations.
The most damning indictment of the education system's failure to embrace the needs of Gypsy Traveller children is surely to be found in the statistics. Only 21 per cent of Gypsy Traveller children in Scotland receive a regular secondary education. Contrary to the views that were expressed by my colleague, Kenny Gibson, I maintain that those children are simply voting with their feet in reaction to a system that does not adequately address their needs. Once and for all, let us dispel the myth that Gypsy Travellers do not want education. I came across the working document, "The Education of Gypsy Traveller Children in the UK", which states:
"We need education if we are to have self-determination. For, in a society which has historically denied us education, the first reason given for not recognising our needs is that we are ignorant. Illiteracy should not be confused with ignorance."
On accommodation, Jamie McGrigor spoke of the poor conditions of the access roads to two of the sites that he visited. He was also concerned that the encampments were locked overnight without access to the keys should an emergency occur.
My most vivid memory from my visit to a site in Lochgilphead is of the amenity blocks, which comprised a laundry room through which there was access to a bathroom. There was no insulation and only one small heater. Even in May, I would not have liked to take a bath or shower in that cold place, yet right now—today, in this weather—children are being bathed there. They will not be lingering long in the soapsuds in Lochgilphead.
As Jamie McGrigor and others pointed out, it is not as if that accommodation comes cheap. In 1995, a survey that was commissioned by the Scottish Office showed that the average pitch rent for a site in Scotland was £36.42. That should be compared with the average council house rent of £31.87. Bear in mind the fact that Gypsy Travellers provide their own trailer and that use of electric meter cards is mandatory. The price of those cards is higher than the price for people in social rented housing.
This has been a good debate. On behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I thank all members who took part in it. Most of all, I echo Kate MacLean's thanks to those who contributed to the committee's inquiry.
It is fair to say that the Scottish Parliament is subject to what we might call the media knocking copy and not recognising the good work that is done by members of the Parliament in its committees. As Jamie Stone pointed out, the Equal Opportunities Committee inquiry into Gypsy Travellers is a fine example of the Parliament's accessibility. The inquiry shows the ability of the committee system to react to issues that are raised by members of the public.
As members have heard, we spent nine months taking written and oral evidence from a wide range of organisations and individuals. I am sure that I speak for all committee members when I say that our visits to the nine local authority sites most informed our deliberations. I give the committee's thanks to the Gypsy Traveller community throughout Scotland for its courtesy and hospitality during our visits.
The committee's report covers the broad policy areas of education, culture, health, social services, accommodation, policing and criminal justice. All those areas have been covered during today's debate. On education, Kate MacLean spoke of the young Gypsy Travellers who so impressed us when they gave evidence on their experiences of the education system. They told us of bullying and of teachers who treated them differently from other children. In an eloquent speech, Elaine Smith also spoke of Gypsy Travellers' problems in accessing education and of the seeming inability of the education system to adapt the curriculum to embrace the Gypsy Traveller culture. Irene McGugan urged that there should be flexibility in the education system and gave us some examples of current good practice. Rhona Brankin spoke of the bullying and name-calling that Gypsy Traveller children have suffered over many generations.
The most damning indictment of the education system's failure to embrace the needs of Gypsy Traveller children is surely to be found in the statistics. Only 21 per cent of Gypsy Traveller children in Scotland receive a regular secondary education. Contrary to the views that were expressed by my colleague, Kenny Gibson, I maintain that those children are simply voting with their feet in reaction to a system that does not adequately address their needs. Once and for all, let us dispel the myth that Gypsy Travellers do not want education. I came across the working document, "The Education of Gypsy Traveller Children in the UK", which states:
"We need education if we are to have self-determination. For, in a society which has historically denied us education, the first reason given for not recognising our needs is that we are ignorant. Illiteracy should not be confused with ignorance."
On accommodation, Jamie McGrigor spoke of the poor conditions of the access roads to two of the sites that he visited. He was also concerned that the encampments were locked overnight without access to the keys should an emergency occur.
My most vivid memory from my visit to a site in Lochgilphead is of the amenity blocks, which comprised a laundry room through which there was access to a bathroom. There was no insulation and only one small heater. Even in May, I would not have liked to take a bath or shower in that cold place, yet right now—today, in this weather—children are being bathed there. They will not be lingering long in the soapsuds in Lochgilphead.
As Jamie McGrigor and others pointed out, it is not as if that accommodation comes cheap. In 1995, a survey that was commissioned by the Scottish Office showed that the average pitch rent for a site in Scotland was £36.42. That should be compared with the average council house rent of £31.87. Bear in mind the fact that Gypsy Travellers provide their own trailer and that use of electric meter cards is mandatory. The price of those cards is higher than the price for people in social rented housing.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2439, in the name of Kate MacLean, on behalf of the Equal Opportunities Committee, on the committee's inq...
Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to bring this debate to the chamber this afternoon. I begin by thanking Delia Lomax, adviser to the Equal Opportunities Committee f...
Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate.In the report of the Equal Opportunities Committee, several observations and recommendations are made as a res...
Kate MacLean:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Mr Gibson:
SNP
Yes.
Kate MacLean:
Lab
The member seems to argue against travelling and Gypsy Travellers having the right to lead the lifestyle that their culture dictates. The debate should be ab...
Mr Gibson:
SNP
What is important is giving all children an equal opportunity in life. Society is not always to blame. The lifestyle choice of Traveller parents has an influ...
Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
The point of the report was that travelling is not a lifestyle choice; it relates to the ethnicity of a group of people in Scotland. Their ethnicity cannot b...
Mr Gibson:
SNP
Perhaps the member should listen to the rest of my speech. However, I certainly think that children do not have a choice of lifestyle.Even if all the recomme...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
It gives me great pleasure to speak in this debate. Although I am no longer a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I thoroughly enjoyed taking an act...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
I endorse what members have said and I congratulate Jamie McGrigor on managing yet again to bring shellfish into a debate in the Scottish Parliament. I say t...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
I join Kate MacLean in thanking the clerks, Delia Lomax, everyone who gave evidence to the committee and Michael McMahon, who originally raised the issue in ...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
Children are the ones who do the bullying. The reports that I have read usually talk about guidance for teachers, parents, boards and schools. I wonder wheth...
Elaine Smith:
Lab
I thank Winnie Ewing for her intervention; I agree with what she said. Members will see from the evidence that we took that some of the young people have bee...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As a member of the original Equal Opportunities Committee, I can recall when the inquiry was first proposed. I commend the committee's current members for pr...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
Scottish Gypsy Travellers are an indigenous part of Scottish culture and their stories and songs have been passed down through many generations. However, the...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I do not know the detail of the Equal Opportunities Committee's report as well as many people in the chamber know it. My colleague Brian Monteith, who is muc...
Kate MacLean:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Phil Gallie:
Con
There is widespread criticism of Gypsy Travellers because of that issue and it is raised in every member's constituency.
Kate MacLean:
Lab
Has Phil Gallie any evidence to suggest that a higher proportion of people in the Gypsy Traveller community do not have high standards of cleanliness than in...
Phil Gallie:
Con
Yes; unfortunately I have evidence from sites in North Ayrshire, from my days as a councillor in Cunninghame District Council. Cathy Jamieson will no doubt r...
Cathy Peattie:
Lab
If that is the case, it is surprising that not one Gypsy Traveller who gave evidence raised that issue as a concern. Is not that odd?
Phil Gallie:
Con
I cannot say whether that is odd or not, as I was not a member of the committee. If I had been, there is no doubt that I would have asked that question—it is...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
I seek an explanation for Phil Gallie's comments. Does he accept that, historically, we were all at one time hunters?
Phil Gallie:
Con
Yes, I entirely accept Tommy Sheridan's point. As I understand the situation, Travellers still hunt today for their own purposes and as part of their way of ...
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As a Johnny-come-lately to the Equal Opportunities Committee, I pay tribute to the committee members for putting in the hard graft.I welcome the committee's ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I am not a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee but I have read the report quite thoroughly. It is first class and a lot of effort has obviously gone ...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Does the member agree that the Executive response is disappointing, in that the Executive has wound up its scheme of giving grants to local authorities to pr...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
I am not going to give the councils any excuse for getting off the hook. It is something that councils must do. I would like the Executive to restore the gra...
Kate MacLean:
Lab
The point that the committee was trying to make is that there should be long-term sites and places where Gypsy Travellers can pull off the road and have acce...