Chamber
Plenary, 08 Nov 2000
08 Nov 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Equality Strategy
I, too, congratulate Jackie Baillie and Margaret Curran on their new appointments. I look forward to working with them.
Fiona Hyslop said that she thought it would be better if we heard from the Equal Opportunities Committee's reporters. During the past year or so, both the committee and its reporters have heard oral evidence and seen written evidence that leaves us in no doubt that the massive discrimination and massive inequality that exists in every aspect of Scottish life must be tackled.
We realise that, because of intolerance, prejudice and—probably more often—ignorance, people are discriminated against. They are not allowed to reach their full potential and do not have access to the goods and services that we take for granted. In the worst cases, people are discriminated against, bullied and subjected to verbal and physical abuse. That situation is intolerable and I am sure that all members in the chamber agree that it must be dealt with, although we may come to different conclusions about how that should be done.
The equality strategy does not claim to be a solution to those problems, nor is it particularly self-congratulatory, as it identifies problems that have not been tackled in the past. The strategy must be mechanistic, as it must examine structures and processes.
I have been involved in equal opportunities since I was first elected to local government and over the years I have seen equal opportunities policies that, frankly, were not worth the paper they were written on. The structures and monitoring were not in place to ensure that those policies were effective.
Some organisations that were consulted when the strategy was being drawn up were critical because the consultation document was vague. However, they are quite happy with the strategy, because their input has been taken on board and included. Many equality organisations have welcomed the strategy and I am quite happy to listen to their comments on it.
I am particularly interested in section 3 of strategy, which deals with the Executive's commitment to mainstreaming. I am sure the minister is aware that the Equal Opportunities Committee has discussed mainstreaming on a number of occasions. On Tuesday, we agreed a research bid to examine that issue in more depth.
As an interim measure, we have agreed a draft checklist, which is based on one produced by the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality. We will consult other equality organisations on our checklist. After that, I intend to write to all the Parliament's committee conveners to ask them to build in the checklist to the work of scrutinising legislation. That temporary measure will be in place until more concrete proposals are made. Perhaps when the minister sums up, she will indicate how she thinks the committee's work on mainstreaming will fit in with the Executive's proposals.
I have a couple of questions on issues that concern me. Appendix 1 of the document, on the legislative framework, does not appear to mention the most recent European Union equal treatment directive—perhaps it is mentioned but, if so, I have not noticed it. That directive deals with significant changes to the law. The UK Government will have to ban discrimination in employment on the grounds of sexual orientation and religious belief within three years and on the grounds of age within six years. Once implemented, that directive will be a significant tool.
Various organisations have raised a second point with me. Jackie Baillie placed great emphasis on inclusive policy making when she opened the debate, but there is a concern that some smaller organisations and community groups do not have adequate resources to become involved in consultations. During the past year and a half, responding to consultations has put a considerable burden on organisations, although they are happy to be consulted. Are there any plans to ensure that they have adequate resources, given that private individuals are able to put massive amounts of money into campaigns against equality? It would be only fair if we were to redress that balance in some way, to ensure that organisations that are committed to pursuing our strategy are also adequately resourced.
I realise that the equality strategy is for the long term. In the meantime, the Executive must make an assumption for equality in all its proposals. Fiona McLeod made a good point about the Transport (Scotland) Bill. Although we managed to include equality provisions in the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2000, the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000 and the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Act 2000, we had to fight for them. Such provisions have been included because of the work of the committee and individual members of the Parliament—they have not just appeared. In future, when bills are introduced, I hope that there will be an assumption for equality.
I feel very positive about the equality strategy. I look forward to working with the Executive to achieve the objectives that are contained in the strategy. I have been critical in the past, but I am happy to support the Executive's motion.
Fiona Hyslop said that she thought it would be better if we heard from the Equal Opportunities Committee's reporters. During the past year or so, both the committee and its reporters have heard oral evidence and seen written evidence that leaves us in no doubt that the massive discrimination and massive inequality that exists in every aspect of Scottish life must be tackled.
We realise that, because of intolerance, prejudice and—probably more often—ignorance, people are discriminated against. They are not allowed to reach their full potential and do not have access to the goods and services that we take for granted. In the worst cases, people are discriminated against, bullied and subjected to verbal and physical abuse. That situation is intolerable and I am sure that all members in the chamber agree that it must be dealt with, although we may come to different conclusions about how that should be done.
The equality strategy does not claim to be a solution to those problems, nor is it particularly self-congratulatory, as it identifies problems that have not been tackled in the past. The strategy must be mechanistic, as it must examine structures and processes.
I have been involved in equal opportunities since I was first elected to local government and over the years I have seen equal opportunities policies that, frankly, were not worth the paper they were written on. The structures and monitoring were not in place to ensure that those policies were effective.
Some organisations that were consulted when the strategy was being drawn up were critical because the consultation document was vague. However, they are quite happy with the strategy, because their input has been taken on board and included. Many equality organisations have welcomed the strategy and I am quite happy to listen to their comments on it.
I am particularly interested in section 3 of strategy, which deals with the Executive's commitment to mainstreaming. I am sure the minister is aware that the Equal Opportunities Committee has discussed mainstreaming on a number of occasions. On Tuesday, we agreed a research bid to examine that issue in more depth.
As an interim measure, we have agreed a draft checklist, which is based on one produced by the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality. We will consult other equality organisations on our checklist. After that, I intend to write to all the Parliament's committee conveners to ask them to build in the checklist to the work of scrutinising legislation. That temporary measure will be in place until more concrete proposals are made. Perhaps when the minister sums up, she will indicate how she thinks the committee's work on mainstreaming will fit in with the Executive's proposals.
I have a couple of questions on issues that concern me. Appendix 1 of the document, on the legislative framework, does not appear to mention the most recent European Union equal treatment directive—perhaps it is mentioned but, if so, I have not noticed it. That directive deals with significant changes to the law. The UK Government will have to ban discrimination in employment on the grounds of sexual orientation and religious belief within three years and on the grounds of age within six years. Once implemented, that directive will be a significant tool.
Various organisations have raised a second point with me. Jackie Baillie placed great emphasis on inclusive policy making when she opened the debate, but there is a concern that some smaller organisations and community groups do not have adequate resources to become involved in consultations. During the past year and a half, responding to consultations has put a considerable burden on organisations, although they are happy to be consulted. Are there any plans to ensure that they have adequate resources, given that private individuals are able to put massive amounts of money into campaigns against equality? It would be only fair if we were to redress that balance in some way, to ensure that organisations that are committed to pursuing our strategy are also adequately resourced.
I realise that the equality strategy is for the long term. In the meantime, the Executive must make an assumption for equality in all its proposals. Fiona McLeod made a good point about the Transport (Scotland) Bill. Although we managed to include equality provisions in the Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2000, the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000 and the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Act 2000, we had to fight for them. Such provisions have been included because of the work of the committee and individual members of the Parliament—they have not just appeared. In future, when bills are introduced, I hope that there will be an assumption for equality.
I feel very positive about the equality strategy. I look forward to working with the Executive to achieve the objectives that are contained in the strategy. I have been critical in the past, but I am happy to support the Executive's motion.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-1320, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the equality strategy, and two amendments to that motion.
The Minister for Social Justice (Jackie Baillie):
Lab
I would like to take members back to 1 July 1999. In his outstanding address at the opening of this Parliament, Donald Dewar said:"we will never lose sight o...
Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased that Jackie Baillie is talking about ensuring that mainstreaming is part of our daily business. Today, at the Transport and the Environment Comm...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
We are taking forward our mainstreaming work in two pilot areas that were identified in the strategy document. One is housing and the other is the schools di...
Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the minister for her statement so far.Could we have an outline of the financial structures that will be used to deliver this strategy across the diff...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
The financial structures are clear. The equality unit has always been meant to be strategic. It will have a budget and I will provide the chamber with detail...
Mr Quinan rose—
SNP
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I will continue. One of the key messages to emerge during our consultation was the need to find better ways for people to get involved and more effective way...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I suspect that a number of members want to speak but have not yet pressed their buttons. I ask them to do so. I will then be able to make up my list of membe...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome Jackie Baillie on what I believe is the occasion of her first speech in her capacity as Minister for Social Justice. It is worth starting by examin...
Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
I accept that the member has concerns about aspects of the equality strategy, although she should be specific about them, but where in the SNP motion does sh...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Would the member like to have the power to amend the Disability Discrimination Act 1995? Would he like to have powers over employment legislation? Yes, he wo...
Mr McMahon:
Lab
Answer the question.
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I will not enter into a dialogue on this. Businesses do not look to this Parliament to examine employment strategies for people with disabilities; they look ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I am conversant with section L2 of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998. Will Fiona Hyslop be good enough to recognise that we have used one of the duties on ...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
As the minister is conversant with section L2, I sincerely hope that she will consider supporting the SNP's amendment, which asks the Executive to use the se...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) rose—
Lab
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I am sorry, Johann. I would like to move on.Before I was elected as an MSP, I spent my years in business, so I am fully conversant with management-speak. I k...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I understand the point that Fiona Hyslop makes, but I do not understand why she seems to berate the Scottish Executive, because the issue that she is address...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I will be interested to hear whether Bill Aitken wants to embrace the Labour party in its self-affirmation and self-congratulation. Mike Rumbles makes a vali...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I am sorry, but I would like to continue.It is important that the Executive, as an employer, uses good practice, but it should remember that senior civil ser...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
In rising to move amendment S1M-1320.1, I think that it would first be appropriate for me to congratulate the new Minister for Social Justice and the new Dep...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
I am not following Bill Aitken's reasoning, so could he be specific about which insulting and patronising legislation he is referring to?
Bill Aitken:
Con
If Mike Rumbles will bear with me, he will hear the answer to his question as I proceed. If he will not bear with me, he will have other opportunities to int...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Order.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Once again, the same nebulous nonsense is being parroted.Let us turn to some of the specifics. I am sure that members will agree that it would be absolutely ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I wonder whether Bill Aitken is aware of the difference between positive discrimination and positive action. Is he also aware that positive discrimination—wh...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Of course I am. I rather suspect, however, that our roles should be reversed—I am not convinced that the minister realises the difference. The Executive migh...
Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the Rev I M Jolly for giving way. Bill Aitken started off by saying that what we have is another glossy document. Perhaps a document printed on brown...