Chamber
Plenary, 02 Sep 2009
02 Sep 2009 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee in the stage 1 debate on the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill.
Before commenting on the stage 1 report, I thank those who helped the committee to scrutinise the bill so effectively. In particular, I thank those who gave written and oral evidence to the committee. We considered an impressive range of evidence, including more than 60 written submissions, and we took oral evidence on the bill in the course of five meetings.
I thank the bill team, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning and my fellow committee members for their work on preparing our report. As always, the committee is grateful to the clerks for their hard work and commitment, and our thanks go to the Scottish Parliament information centre for its briefings and expertise. Finally, I thank the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the Finance Committee for their reports on the bill.
From the outset, let me say that the committee is supportive of the general principles of the bill. Every child has the right to a high-quality education, and there are few things more important than ensuring that every child in every community can go to a good local school. In our consideration of the bill, the needs of children and their families should be at the heart of our policy, and services for children and their families should be at the heart of our communities.
Closing schools is never an easy decision for a local council, and the committee believes that the motivation of the bill is to enshrine best practice and to make the process as transparent and accessible as possible for all those who are affected by changes. The bill will not mean that no school will ever be closed in the future, but it is anticipated that it will ensure that the decision-making process will have been open, transparent and inclusive, guaranteeing that the decision is in the best interests of the children, staff and community affected. In that respect, the committee welcomes the bill, in particular the plans to ensure that the consultation process is made fairer, more open and more inclusive.
I especially welcome the plans to ensure that pupils as well as parents have a role to play in the process. I echo the evidence that was submitted by Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People, which the minister highlighted in her speech. I note her commitment to ensure that young people will be part of the consultation process—after all, they will be affected by it.
As everyone here will be aware, article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child gives children the right to be heard and to have their views taken into account. The committee therefore welcomes the cabinet secretary's assurance that she will consult Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People on the best way to involve children and pupils in the process in a meaningful way and one that does not cause them undue distress or concern.
The committee accepts the view that rural schools require special provisions. Schools should be at the centre of community life—that can be as true for urban schools as it is for rural schools—but some rural schools might be the only facility in the community or in the whole area for some considerable distance. Many rural schools make an invaluable contribution to their local area, and every attempt should be made to preserve access to a local school for rural communities.
In a situation where closure is being considered by a local council, the bill will, we hope, ensure that closure is possible only when the case is a strong one, when it is in the interests of educational provision in the local area and when all local stakeholders have been consulted and involved in the process.
Following its consideration of the bill and of the oral and written evidence, the committee has three main areas in which, we believe, further thought and consideration would be helpful before the commencement of stage 2. The first issue concerns the role of HMIE. Section 8 will require HMIE to consider the educational aspects of every education authority proposal to close a school or to make other relevant changes to the school estate. In evidence, representatives of many local authorities felt that the proposal lacked clarity. Some of them expressed concern about whether HMIE has the required resources and about a perceived potential conflict of interest regarding HMIE's role as both a consultee and an adviser. For example, Clackmannanshire Council stated:
"we remain concerned about the prominence which HMIE is given in the process described in the Bill."
That view was echoed by the Educational Institute of Scotland, which said:
"As the HMIE is an ‘executive agency of the Scottish Ministers' this may lead to at least a perceived conflict of interest if the closure proposal were to be subject to a subsequent call in notice by the ‘Scottish Ministers.'"
The committee welcomes the involvement of HMIE in the consultation process, but we think that the Government must examine those concerns fully before stage 2.
The second of the committee's concerns relates to the three factors that local authorities must consider when making proposals that will affect rural schools—I know that the cabinet secretary is considering the matter fully. The bill will require education authorities to consider:
"(a) any viable alternative to the closure proposal,
(b) the likely effect on the local community in consequence of the proposal (if implemented),
(c) the likely effect caused by any different travelling arrangements that may be required in consequence of the proposal (if implemented)."
The committee accepts that rural schools require special consideration, but those three factors could apply to all schools. During one of the committee's evidence-taking meetings, the Association of Scottish Community Councils told us:
"the three criteria should not be used specifically for rural schools".—[Official Report, Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, 13 May 2009; c 2365.]
The Educational Institute of Scotland expressed concern that local authorities that have rural and non-rural schools
"may be required to treat the closure of two schools within its area in two different ways."
There is no doubt that rural schools face specific challenges, but schools in urban areas often face specific challenges, too. Professor Kay told the committee:
"Many issues that pertain to rural areas impact on urban schools."—[Official Report, Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, 6 May 2009; c 2319.]
Therefore, although the committee accepts that additional factors need to be considered when the closure of a rural school is proposed, we heard evidence that the three additional factors could apply to all schools. The committee asks that the Government keep the matter under active consideration.
I move on to consider the committee's third area of concern. The majority of respondents who provided evidence agreed with the view that the current system of automatic referral to the Scottish ministers is no longer appropriate, as the cabinet secretary said. The committee shares that view, but the new system must be clear and transparent, and the committee is concerned that the Government's proposed ministerial call-in process could create confusion. We are particularly concerned about the Government's definition of a "material consideration". Although the cabinet secretary discussed the matter with the committee during stage 1, further clarification before stage 2 would be helpful.
The vast majority of written and oral evidence that the committee received was supportive of the general principles of the bill. The committee asks that the Scottish Government continue to consider fully the recommendations in our report. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary has proactively followed up on many recommendations, and I hope that that constructive working relationship will continue as we progress to stage 2. I am pleased to be able to recommend that the Parliament support the general principles of the bill.
Before commenting on the stage 1 report, I thank those who helped the committee to scrutinise the bill so effectively. In particular, I thank those who gave written and oral evidence to the committee. We considered an impressive range of evidence, including more than 60 written submissions, and we took oral evidence on the bill in the course of five meetings.
I thank the bill team, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning and my fellow committee members for their work on preparing our report. As always, the committee is grateful to the clerks for their hard work and commitment, and our thanks go to the Scottish Parliament information centre for its briefings and expertise. Finally, I thank the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the Finance Committee for their reports on the bill.
From the outset, let me say that the committee is supportive of the general principles of the bill. Every child has the right to a high-quality education, and there are few things more important than ensuring that every child in every community can go to a good local school. In our consideration of the bill, the needs of children and their families should be at the heart of our policy, and services for children and their families should be at the heart of our communities.
Closing schools is never an easy decision for a local council, and the committee believes that the motivation of the bill is to enshrine best practice and to make the process as transparent and accessible as possible for all those who are affected by changes. The bill will not mean that no school will ever be closed in the future, but it is anticipated that it will ensure that the decision-making process will have been open, transparent and inclusive, guaranteeing that the decision is in the best interests of the children, staff and community affected. In that respect, the committee welcomes the bill, in particular the plans to ensure that the consultation process is made fairer, more open and more inclusive.
I especially welcome the plans to ensure that pupils as well as parents have a role to play in the process. I echo the evidence that was submitted by Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People, which the minister highlighted in her speech. I note her commitment to ensure that young people will be part of the consultation process—after all, they will be affected by it.
As everyone here will be aware, article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child gives children the right to be heard and to have their views taken into account. The committee therefore welcomes the cabinet secretary's assurance that she will consult Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People on the best way to involve children and pupils in the process in a meaningful way and one that does not cause them undue distress or concern.
The committee accepts the view that rural schools require special provisions. Schools should be at the centre of community life—that can be as true for urban schools as it is for rural schools—but some rural schools might be the only facility in the community or in the whole area for some considerable distance. Many rural schools make an invaluable contribution to their local area, and every attempt should be made to preserve access to a local school for rural communities.
In a situation where closure is being considered by a local council, the bill will, we hope, ensure that closure is possible only when the case is a strong one, when it is in the interests of educational provision in the local area and when all local stakeholders have been consulted and involved in the process.
Following its consideration of the bill and of the oral and written evidence, the committee has three main areas in which, we believe, further thought and consideration would be helpful before the commencement of stage 2. The first issue concerns the role of HMIE. Section 8 will require HMIE to consider the educational aspects of every education authority proposal to close a school or to make other relevant changes to the school estate. In evidence, representatives of many local authorities felt that the proposal lacked clarity. Some of them expressed concern about whether HMIE has the required resources and about a perceived potential conflict of interest regarding HMIE's role as both a consultee and an adviser. For example, Clackmannanshire Council stated:
"we remain concerned about the prominence which HMIE is given in the process described in the Bill."
That view was echoed by the Educational Institute of Scotland, which said:
"As the HMIE is an ‘executive agency of the Scottish Ministers' this may lead to at least a perceived conflict of interest if the closure proposal were to be subject to a subsequent call in notice by the ‘Scottish Ministers.'"
The committee welcomes the involvement of HMIE in the consultation process, but we think that the Government must examine those concerns fully before stage 2.
The second of the committee's concerns relates to the three factors that local authorities must consider when making proposals that will affect rural schools—I know that the cabinet secretary is considering the matter fully. The bill will require education authorities to consider:
"(a) any viable alternative to the closure proposal,
(b) the likely effect on the local community in consequence of the proposal (if implemented),
(c) the likely effect caused by any different travelling arrangements that may be required in consequence of the proposal (if implemented)."
The committee accepts that rural schools require special consideration, but those three factors could apply to all schools. During one of the committee's evidence-taking meetings, the Association of Scottish Community Councils told us:
"the three criteria should not be used specifically for rural schools".—[Official Report, Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, 13 May 2009; c 2365.]
The Educational Institute of Scotland expressed concern that local authorities that have rural and non-rural schools
"may be required to treat the closure of two schools within its area in two different ways."
There is no doubt that rural schools face specific challenges, but schools in urban areas often face specific challenges, too. Professor Kay told the committee:
"Many issues that pertain to rural areas impact on urban schools."—[Official Report, Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, 6 May 2009; c 2319.]
Therefore, although the committee accepts that additional factors need to be considered when the closure of a rural school is proposed, we heard evidence that the three additional factors could apply to all schools. The committee asks that the Government keep the matter under active consideration.
I move on to consider the committee's third area of concern. The majority of respondents who provided evidence agreed with the view that the current system of automatic referral to the Scottish ministers is no longer appropriate, as the cabinet secretary said. The committee shares that view, but the new system must be clear and transparent, and the committee is concerned that the Government's proposed ministerial call-in process could create confusion. We are particularly concerned about the Government's definition of a "material consideration". Although the cabinet secretary discussed the matter with the committee during stage 1, further clarification before stage 2 would be helpful.
The vast majority of written and oral evidence that the committee received was supportive of the general principles of the bill. The committee asks that the Scottish Government continue to consider fully the recommendations in our report. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary has proactively followed up on many recommendations, and I hope that that constructive working relationship will continue as we progress to stage 2. I am pleased to be able to recommend that the Parliament support the general principles of the bill.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-4734, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on stage 1 of the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill.I am delighte...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Fiona Hyslop):
SNP
I express my gratitude to Karen Whitefield and the other members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their careful, thorough and co...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary is dealing with her manifesto commitments in relation to rural schools. Can she confirm that there was also a clear manifesto commitmen...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Yes, I acknowledge that commitment. I am delighted that we now have record lows in class sizes and record lows in pupil teacher ratios. Indeed, on my visits ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
Is the cabinet secretary willing to urge local authorities that are undertaking school closure exercises, such as the City of Edinburgh Council, to follow th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
As the member will understand, the consultation to which he referred is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council. He will note on page 19 of the bill and i...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
In the event that a consultation does not meet the best practice requirements that the cabinet secretary has outlined, will parents have recourse to somebody...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Indeed, yes. I refer the member to the bill. One proposal is for ministerial call-in: if a consultation process is not carried out properly, parents can refe...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Does the minister accept that those of us who have some concerns about that in no way want to diminish the safeguards in the bill for rural schools? Extendin...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
It is important to recognise the strength of the improvements on consultation for all schools, including semi-rural schools with transport issues. The defini...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee in the stage 1 debate on the Schools (Consultation) (S...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
We came back from the recess to the fall-out from the al-Megrahi debacle and the decision to postpone the introduction of the children's hearings bill, and t...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Oh, no!
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I was extending the hand of friendship, Mr Foulkes.A number of issues with the bill remain, but I hope that with a little movement from the cabinet secretary...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
This is an important point. The committee convener stated that rural schools require special consideration. Does Ken Macintosh agree with that? If so, what s...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
The committee convener made that point but then went on to say that the committee wants the Government to keep the three criteria under active consideration....
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Yes.
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
To clarify, there was not consensus on the consultation, but quite a polarised response. However, the compromise and new creative solution of ministerial cal...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I think that there is still some anxiety about whether ministers should have a call-in at all, but I recognise that that is an improvement on the current pro...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Murdo Fraser, who is absent from the debate because his wife Emma has just given birth to their second child, Lucy Eliz...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
The Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity to speak about the bill.The issue is important. As members may be aware, the City of Edinburgh Council is consu...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
That is an important part of the debate. Even under the current system, the transport issues that are associated with school closures are subject to scrutiny...
Margaret Smith:
LD
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but I think that there is a potential lack of clarity in the way in which those three criteria are set out...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased to speak in this afternoon's debate as we consider the general principles of the bill. However, as I am a Glasgow MSP, members would expect me t...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Does Mr Doris believe, given the nature of his remarks, that rural and urban school closures should be treated identically, or does he think that different c...
Bob Doris:
SNP
Given that the SNP's manifesto commitment—which I suspect members are only too keen to see us fulfil—specifically mentioned rural schools, it is only right t...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The member made an interesting argument about calling it an educational analysis statement as opposed to an educational benefits statement. That cuts to the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Mr Doris, you should keep an eye on the time.
Bob Doris:
SNP
Of course. I thank the cabinet secretary for her helpful clarification.I conclude by saying that I am delighted with the core change to allow call-in by the ...