Chamber
Plenary, 15 Jan 2003
15 Jan 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Members are sometimes surprised by how relevant the topic at time for reflection is to the debate that follows. Today's time for reflection was certainly relevant to the debate that we will have as we consider some of the most marginalised members of our communities among our children and young people.
I am delighted to introduce a committee bill that seeks to establish a commissioner for children and young people. The bill represents the culmination of extensive consultation with organisations, children and young people and I am delighted that some of those children and young people—from the MacRobert youth centre in Stirling, from Northfield Academy in Aberdeen, from Oban, from Morgan Academy in Dundee and from South Lanarkshire youth council—are in the public gallery. When I came into the chamber, I also noticed one or two other people who have come along on their own steam—some of them gave us quite a hard time and made their views clear at the event that we held in the chamber.
In particular, I thank committee reporters Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan, who have worked on the detail of the bill, and all committee members and clerks past and present for their commitment and hard work in making the bill a reality. On behalf of the committee, I also thank all those in the non-Executive bills unit who put in an inordinate amount of work to ensure that the bill reached this stage.
The ability of committees to initiate legislation sets the Scottish Parliament apart from many other Parliaments. The bill is unanimously supported by members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and is an excellent example of the effectiveness of the committee system in delivering bills. It has shown what can be achieved by committees and the Executive working together to bring forward bills.
In 1989, children's rights were recognised internationally in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, from which children's commissioners the world over have taken their inspiration. I pay tribute to the voluntary organisations that have campaigned for years for a children's commissioner to be established in Scotland. A children's commissioner was established in Wales in 2000, there is a bill for a commissioner in Northern Ireland and at least 18 other countries worldwide have a children's commissioner. If the bill survives parliamentary scrutiny, there will be a Scottish commissioner for children and young people by this time next year.
The bill's key proposal is the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, whose general function will be to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people. The bill gives children's rights the attention that they deserve. It will establish a commissioner whose sole interest is the rights of children and young people. The commissioner will have a remit that covers all—not just some—children in Scotland. Many existing organisations do a fantastic job in relation to children's issues and the Executive has delivered many initiatives to ensure that all children and young people get the best possible start in life, but there is no one who can take an independent view over the whole range of issues that affect children and young people in Scotland. The commissioner will be able to do so. That will be the unique value of the post that we seek to establish through the bill.
Of course, the commissioner will need to prioritise issues on which he or she will focus. It is not for the Parliament to prescribe which issues should be considered a priority. The commissioner should be free to take up issues that he or she sees as the most important. However, we would expect a focus on where there is greatest need—that is, on children and young people who are particularly vulnerable. That said, within the broad framework of fulfilling his or her functions, it will be up to the commissioner to decide which issues to tackle and to justify those decisions.
I will go through some of the main proposals in the bill. The appointment will be made by the Queen on nomination by the Parliament. In the worst-case scenario, removal will also be by the Queen, following a resolution of the Parliament. Of course, the commissioner can resign if he or she wishes to do so.
The maximum period for which anyone will be able to serve as a commissioner will be two five-year terms. We expect the appointment to be a full-time appointment and that the terms of appointment will prevent the commissioner from holding a post that might create a conflict of interests—for example, they could not become a member of the Scottish Parliament. We fully expect that the appointment procedure will adhere as far as possible to the Nolan principles and that no one who has been an MSP, a member of Parliament or a member of the European Parliament in the previous year will be eligible for appointment. As an outgoing committee, we strongly recommend that any future committee with responsibility for education reviews the commissioner's progress at least annually.
The commissioner will cover all young people in Scotland up to the age of 18 and those up to the age of 21 who have been looked after by an authority. That reflects the age range covered by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child while recognising the particular vulnerability of those who have been in the care system.
The bill will give the commissioner a number of functions including: to promote the rights of children and young people; to review law, policy and practice; to promote best practice by service providers; to undertake research; and to conduct investigations. Through those functions, the commissioner will encourage everyone in Scotland—including children and young people themselves, service providers, parents, the Executive and the Parliament—to find out about and take account of the rights of children and young people. In other words, the commissioner will take a mainstreaming approach.
That will not be an easy task and, with such a wide remit, it is important that the commissioner's role should be to encourage change rather than to try to impose it. The commissioner is set up to be a persuasive voice—a children's champion—but he or she is not intended to be an alternative to the courts. There is no role in appeals or indeed in individual cases. Moreover, the commissioner's role is not an alternative to the duty of MSPs to represent their constituents. Instead, the commissioner can endeavour to ensure that existing bodies work better for children and young people.
During the consultation process, one of the most contentious issues was the carrying out of investigations. Although we fully expect that that will be only a small part of the commissioner's work, it is in relation to investigations that the bill provides the strongest powers. The commissioner can consider the extent to which a service provider has taken account of rights, interests and views in any action or decision concerning children and young people. However, the commissioner cannot, in an investigation, duplicate the proper function of another organisation or investigate a case that concerns only an individual child.
The bill provides similar powers to those that are available to parliamentary committees in inquiries, notably the power to require the production of documents and the attendance of witnesses. The outcome of an investigation will be a report to the Parliament. There are no statutory sanctions attached to the outcome of investigations. However, other sanctions are available. There is the powerful sanction of publicity and there is the ability to raise issues with the Parliament. We expect the commissioner to make good use of both those.
The commissioner might, after a couple of years of experience, want to take the opportunity to comment on whether the powers provided have proven adequate. That comment could perhaps be presented to Parliament in the annual report. We do not consider that there is any need to make statutory provision for a review of powers. If a review is needed, I am certain that the commissioner will undertake one and prepare a report for the Parliament's consideration.
The commissioner's functions set out a framework for action rather than prescribing the detail of everything that the commissioner will do. Much of the day-to-day detail will need to be filled in by the commissioner once he or she is in post. We feel that that is appropriate. Once the Parliament has laid down the broad principles, the commissioner will be best placed to develop the detailed implementation.
However, the bill gives direction to how those working methods must be developed. The commissioner is required to have regard to the relevant provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In particular, in accordance with key principles of the convention, the commissioner must listen to children's views and consider their best interests. In addition, and reflecting the mainstreaming approach of the bill, the commissioner must encourage others to act according to those principles.
Taking inspiration from article 12 of the convention, the commissioner will be under a duty to involve children in his or her work. The bill therefore ensures that the commissioner's work will be informed by children and young people. In order to achieve that, the commissioner will have to be accessible and will have to be out and about. We cannot prescribe how that will happen. We live in a society in which the media of communication change quickly. However, the commissioner must ensure that he or she speaks to and involves young people and that he or she works in partnership with other organisations.
The most important point relates to the independence of the commissioner, which is crucial to the post. The commissioner will be independent of the Executive, political parties, statutory bodies and the Parliament. On occasion, the commissioner might be critical of the Scottish Parliament. We should not be afraid of that and we should respect the commissioner's right to be so. We are getting used to criticism.
By supporting the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, the Parliament will send a message that we are committed to young people and to ensuring the highest regard for their rights. We are creating an office that will make a difference to the lives of children and young people in Scotland. I, for one, would certainly not support the bill if I believed that it provided for another talking shop that would let children and young people down. The post is one with meaning and commitment.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill.
I am delighted to introduce a committee bill that seeks to establish a commissioner for children and young people. The bill represents the culmination of extensive consultation with organisations, children and young people and I am delighted that some of those children and young people—from the MacRobert youth centre in Stirling, from Northfield Academy in Aberdeen, from Oban, from Morgan Academy in Dundee and from South Lanarkshire youth council—are in the public gallery. When I came into the chamber, I also noticed one or two other people who have come along on their own steam—some of them gave us quite a hard time and made their views clear at the event that we held in the chamber.
In particular, I thank committee reporters Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan, who have worked on the detail of the bill, and all committee members and clerks past and present for their commitment and hard work in making the bill a reality. On behalf of the committee, I also thank all those in the non-Executive bills unit who put in an inordinate amount of work to ensure that the bill reached this stage.
The ability of committees to initiate legislation sets the Scottish Parliament apart from many other Parliaments. The bill is unanimously supported by members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and is an excellent example of the effectiveness of the committee system in delivering bills. It has shown what can be achieved by committees and the Executive working together to bring forward bills.
In 1989, children's rights were recognised internationally in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, from which children's commissioners the world over have taken their inspiration. I pay tribute to the voluntary organisations that have campaigned for years for a children's commissioner to be established in Scotland. A children's commissioner was established in Wales in 2000, there is a bill for a commissioner in Northern Ireland and at least 18 other countries worldwide have a children's commissioner. If the bill survives parliamentary scrutiny, there will be a Scottish commissioner for children and young people by this time next year.
The bill's key proposal is the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, whose general function will be to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people. The bill gives children's rights the attention that they deserve. It will establish a commissioner whose sole interest is the rights of children and young people. The commissioner will have a remit that covers all—not just some—children in Scotland. Many existing organisations do a fantastic job in relation to children's issues and the Executive has delivered many initiatives to ensure that all children and young people get the best possible start in life, but there is no one who can take an independent view over the whole range of issues that affect children and young people in Scotland. The commissioner will be able to do so. That will be the unique value of the post that we seek to establish through the bill.
Of course, the commissioner will need to prioritise issues on which he or she will focus. It is not for the Parliament to prescribe which issues should be considered a priority. The commissioner should be free to take up issues that he or she sees as the most important. However, we would expect a focus on where there is greatest need—that is, on children and young people who are particularly vulnerable. That said, within the broad framework of fulfilling his or her functions, it will be up to the commissioner to decide which issues to tackle and to justify those decisions.
I will go through some of the main proposals in the bill. The appointment will be made by the Queen on nomination by the Parliament. In the worst-case scenario, removal will also be by the Queen, following a resolution of the Parliament. Of course, the commissioner can resign if he or she wishes to do so.
The maximum period for which anyone will be able to serve as a commissioner will be two five-year terms. We expect the appointment to be a full-time appointment and that the terms of appointment will prevent the commissioner from holding a post that might create a conflict of interests—for example, they could not become a member of the Scottish Parliament. We fully expect that the appointment procedure will adhere as far as possible to the Nolan principles and that no one who has been an MSP, a member of Parliament or a member of the European Parliament in the previous year will be eligible for appointment. As an outgoing committee, we strongly recommend that any future committee with responsibility for education reviews the commissioner's progress at least annually.
The commissioner will cover all young people in Scotland up to the age of 18 and those up to the age of 21 who have been looked after by an authority. That reflects the age range covered by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child while recognising the particular vulnerability of those who have been in the care system.
The bill will give the commissioner a number of functions including: to promote the rights of children and young people; to review law, policy and practice; to promote best practice by service providers; to undertake research; and to conduct investigations. Through those functions, the commissioner will encourage everyone in Scotland—including children and young people themselves, service providers, parents, the Executive and the Parliament—to find out about and take account of the rights of children and young people. In other words, the commissioner will take a mainstreaming approach.
That will not be an easy task and, with such a wide remit, it is important that the commissioner's role should be to encourage change rather than to try to impose it. The commissioner is set up to be a persuasive voice—a children's champion—but he or she is not intended to be an alternative to the courts. There is no role in appeals or indeed in individual cases. Moreover, the commissioner's role is not an alternative to the duty of MSPs to represent their constituents. Instead, the commissioner can endeavour to ensure that existing bodies work better for children and young people.
During the consultation process, one of the most contentious issues was the carrying out of investigations. Although we fully expect that that will be only a small part of the commissioner's work, it is in relation to investigations that the bill provides the strongest powers. The commissioner can consider the extent to which a service provider has taken account of rights, interests and views in any action or decision concerning children and young people. However, the commissioner cannot, in an investigation, duplicate the proper function of another organisation or investigate a case that concerns only an individual child.
The bill provides similar powers to those that are available to parliamentary committees in inquiries, notably the power to require the production of documents and the attendance of witnesses. The outcome of an investigation will be a report to the Parliament. There are no statutory sanctions attached to the outcome of investigations. However, other sanctions are available. There is the powerful sanction of publicity and there is the ability to raise issues with the Parliament. We expect the commissioner to make good use of both those.
The commissioner might, after a couple of years of experience, want to take the opportunity to comment on whether the powers provided have proven adequate. That comment could perhaps be presented to Parliament in the annual report. We do not consider that there is any need to make statutory provision for a review of powers. If a review is needed, I am certain that the commissioner will undertake one and prepare a report for the Parliament's consideration.
The commissioner's functions set out a framework for action rather than prescribing the detail of everything that the commissioner will do. Much of the day-to-day detail will need to be filled in by the commissioner once he or she is in post. We feel that that is appropriate. Once the Parliament has laid down the broad principles, the commissioner will be best placed to develop the detailed implementation.
However, the bill gives direction to how those working methods must be developed. The commissioner is required to have regard to the relevant provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In particular, in accordance with key principles of the convention, the commissioner must listen to children's views and consider their best interests. In addition, and reflecting the mainstreaming approach of the bill, the commissioner must encourage others to act according to those principles.
Taking inspiration from article 12 of the convention, the commissioner will be under a duty to involve children in his or her work. The bill therefore ensures that the commissioner's work will be informed by children and young people. In order to achieve that, the commissioner will have to be accessible and will have to be out and about. We cannot prescribe how that will happen. We live in a society in which the media of communication change quickly. However, the commissioner must ensure that he or she speaks to and involves young people and that he or she works in partnership with other organisations.
The most important point relates to the independence of the commissioner, which is crucial to the post. The commissioner will be independent of the Executive, political parties, statutory bodies and the Parliament. On occasion, the commissioner might be critical of the Scottish Parliament. We should not be afraid of that and we should respect the commissioner's right to be so. We are getting used to criticism.
By supporting the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, the Parliament will send a message that we are committed to young people and to ensuring the highest regard for their rights. We are creating an office that will make a difference to the lives of children and young people in Scotland. I, for one, would certainly not support the bill if I believed that it provided for another talking shop that would let children and young people down. The post is one with meaning and commitment.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The first of our debates today is a debate on motion S1M-3689, in the name of Karen Gillon, on stage 1 of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Sco...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
Members are sometimes surprised by how relevant the topic at time for reflection is to the debate that follows. Today's time for reflection was certainly rel...
The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
Like Karen Gillon, I welcome in particular the young people who have come to the public gallery to listen to the debate. The debate centres around the best i...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I begin by conveying apologies from Michael Russell, who is, unfortunately, unwell this afternoon. On a happier note, I congratulate Karen Gillon on her comp...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I offer the apologies of my colleague Brian Monteith, who is not able to be with us for the whole of this afternoon's debate. Unfortunately he is attending a...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
There is a sense of déjà vu about this debate, because it is not long since committee members talked about the report that established the case for the appoi...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
In the open debate, we have time for two short speeches of three minutes each.
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
I add my thanks to the clerks, to NEBU, to my parliamentary colleagues on the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and, in particular, to Irene McGugan. Su...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
Speaking as a genuine wrinkly—unlike the young ladies on the Labour benches—I have been actively involved in discussing and promoting this subject over the p...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We now move to closing speeches, which should be of three minutes.
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Karen Gillon and the Education, Culture and Sport Committee on introducing the bill. In years gone by, I was a member of the committee, but I ...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
I take it that Mr Stone is speaking as a smoothie, rather than as a wrinkly.
Mr Stone:
LD
As they said in "Beyond the Fringe", Esau was a hairy man, but I am a smooth man.Sorry, Ian Jenkins has thrown me, completely and utterly.Like all the other ...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I thank the Presiding Officer for allowing me to arrive late for the debate following my attendance at a family funeral. I am pleased to be able to make a co...
Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I begin by congratulating the committee on the work that it has done. The Parliament should also thank the committee for the work that it has done on the bil...
Karen Gillon:
Lab
Does Fiona McLeod accept that we have created a new public services ombudsman and that the Parliament should say to the ombudsman from the outset that they m...
Fiona McLeod:
SNP
I am not looking for the commissioner to be the last court of appeal, but having talked about exhausting the process, I hope that there will always be someon...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to say a few words in closing for the Executive. The debate has been short but useful. All members have given a clear commitment to...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
I thank all the members who participated in the debate. The response has been positive, even from the wrinklies and the smoothie—wherever he is.The bill prov...