Chamber
Plenary, 18 Nov 2004
18 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Bill
I, too, thank Elaine Smith for introducing the bill and for the dedication that she has shown during the process. I also thank the Health Committee clerks for their hard work and support as we worked through the bill.
In scrutinising the bill, the committee sought to address several issues. The principal ones were whether evidence exists that mothers are likely to encounter adverse reactions to breastfeeding their child; whether such reactions are likely to inhibit the take-up and duration of breastfeeding; and whether introducing a criminal offence of deliberately preventing a person from breastfeeding would increase the take-up and duration of breastfeeding. It was difficult for the committee to access definitive research that details how common it is for women to be asked to leave a public place when breastfeeding. However, witnesses from the National Childbirth Trust and the Breastfeeding Network said that, in the course of their work, they were regularly in contact with women who have encountered such problems. While that evidence is clearly anecdotal, the committee accepted that there is evidence to support the view that mothers often experience adverse reactions to breastfeeding in public. There was also a clear consensus among witnesses that such reactions—or, at least, the fear of provoking them—inhibited mothers from breastfeeding in public. Therefore, the committee accepted that such attitudes could have a negative impact on breastfeeding rates.
We have heard a lot today about the fact that the bill seeks to make it a criminal offence to prevent or stop a child being fed milk. The issues surrounding that criminalisation were more complex. Some witnesses were strongly of the view that criminalisation would make more women confident and assured about feeding in public, but others were not so sure. The committee heard from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that, rather than make the prevention of breastfeeding a criminal offence, it might be preferable to include a statutory provision on breastfeeding in the licences and charters of public establishments. However, we heard evidence from Elaine Smith and from Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre that that would mean that some public places would be missed out.
It can certainly be argued that the principal reason for the bill is not punitive and that the possibility of legal action should simply act as a deterrent. Elaine Smith is keen that the bill should not lead to a large number of prosecutions and intends the purpose to be to change attitudes and to make women feel more comfortable about breastfeeding in public. David Davidson commented that, in other places in the world where it is an offence to prevent breastfeeding, the law has not been invoked, but it is not a good argument to say that, because the law would never be used, the prevention of breastfeeding should not be made a criminal offence. The fact is that we seek to make it a criminal offence as a deterrent to those who seek to prevent or stop women breastfeeding in public places. There was little doubt in the committee that legislation can have a positive impact on changing attitudes and behaviour.
On the duty on Scottish ministers to support and encourage breastfeeding, Malcolm Chisholm, when he was Minister for Health and Community Care, told the committee that the Executive's general commitment to promote health improvement in the National Health Service Reform (Scotland) Bill might render it unnecessary to include a specific duty on the promotion of breastfeeding. However, the committee fully supported the measures in the bill to promote the take-up and duration of breastfeeding and did not accept that the continuing discussions on the issue should hinder the bill's progress.
The bill is not about making it illegal to breastfeed babies over a certain age; it is about ensuring that breastfeeding and bottle-feeding mothers and babies are given equal and unimpeded access to public services and spaces. It will also have a key role to play in changing attitudes and ensuring that mothers no longer feel inhibited about breastfeeding in public. Therefore, I am happy to give it my full support today and to recommend that the Parliament pass the bill.
In scrutinising the bill, the committee sought to address several issues. The principal ones were whether evidence exists that mothers are likely to encounter adverse reactions to breastfeeding their child; whether such reactions are likely to inhibit the take-up and duration of breastfeeding; and whether introducing a criminal offence of deliberately preventing a person from breastfeeding would increase the take-up and duration of breastfeeding. It was difficult for the committee to access definitive research that details how common it is for women to be asked to leave a public place when breastfeeding. However, witnesses from the National Childbirth Trust and the Breastfeeding Network said that, in the course of their work, they were regularly in contact with women who have encountered such problems. While that evidence is clearly anecdotal, the committee accepted that there is evidence to support the view that mothers often experience adverse reactions to breastfeeding in public. There was also a clear consensus among witnesses that such reactions—or, at least, the fear of provoking them—inhibited mothers from breastfeeding in public. Therefore, the committee accepted that such attitudes could have a negative impact on breastfeeding rates.
We have heard a lot today about the fact that the bill seeks to make it a criminal offence to prevent or stop a child being fed milk. The issues surrounding that criminalisation were more complex. Some witnesses were strongly of the view that criminalisation would make more women confident and assured about feeding in public, but others were not so sure. The committee heard from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that, rather than make the prevention of breastfeeding a criminal offence, it might be preferable to include a statutory provision on breastfeeding in the licences and charters of public establishments. However, we heard evidence from Elaine Smith and from Mike Dailly of the Govan Law Centre that that would mean that some public places would be missed out.
It can certainly be argued that the principal reason for the bill is not punitive and that the possibility of legal action should simply act as a deterrent. Elaine Smith is keen that the bill should not lead to a large number of prosecutions and intends the purpose to be to change attitudes and to make women feel more comfortable about breastfeeding in public. David Davidson commented that, in other places in the world where it is an offence to prevent breastfeeding, the law has not been invoked, but it is not a good argument to say that, because the law would never be used, the prevention of breastfeeding should not be made a criminal offence. The fact is that we seek to make it a criminal offence as a deterrent to those who seek to prevent or stop women breastfeeding in public places. There was little doubt in the committee that legislation can have a positive impact on changing attitudes and behaviour.
On the duty on Scottish ministers to support and encourage breastfeeding, Malcolm Chisholm, when he was Minister for Health and Community Care, told the committee that the Executive's general commitment to promote health improvement in the National Health Service Reform (Scotland) Bill might render it unnecessary to include a specific duty on the promotion of breastfeeding. However, the committee fully supported the measures in the bill to promote the take-up and duration of breastfeeding and did not accept that the continuing discussions on the issue should hinder the bill's progress.
The bill is not about making it illegal to breastfeed babies over a certain age; it is about ensuring that breastfeeding and bottle-feeding mothers and babies are given equal and unimpeded access to public services and spaces. It will also have a key role to play in changing attitudes and ensuring that mothers no longer feel inhibited about breastfeeding in public. Therefore, I am happy to give it my full support today and to recommend that the Parliament pass the bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1968, in the name of Elaine Smith, that the Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Bill be passed. I call Susan Dea...
Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):
Lab
The Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Bill, if approved by Parliament today, will be a landmark piece of legislation for Scotland. I am delighted to open the deba...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
I congratulate Susan Deacon on her opening speech on behalf of Elaine Smith. We owe thanks to Susan for that and to Elaine for bringing the bill before us.I ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
I call Fiona Hyslop to open for the Scottish National Party.
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I pay tribute to Elaine Smith for introducing the bill and, more important, for presenting the bill and arguing the case in a way that has persuaded people w...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I, too, congratulate Elaine Smith on her dogged determination over several years—indeed, into her second session of Parliament—in pursuing her right as a bac...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
I recall from the evidence that was given to the committee that the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland said that it would not want to use breac...
Mr Davidson:
Con
The witnesses might have said that but, as I said, I talked to someone who was on the beat until very recently. They told me that the police were using the e...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
On behalf of the Liberal Democrat group, I congratulate Elaine Smith on her achievement. It is quite something for a back bencher to change Scots law—subject...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind):
Ind
I congratulate Elaine Smith on the bill. My experience over many years has taught me the difficulty of persuading people to breastfeed. Although rates have b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am sorry, Dr Turner, but I will have to stop you. Although two microphones are turned on in front of you, I understand that some members are having difficu...
Dr Turner:
Ind
I am sorry, what is the problem?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Could you position yourself closer to one of the microphones, Dr Turner?
Dr Turner:
Ind
Can you hear me now?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I can. Please start again.I congratulate Elaine Smith. The bill is wonderful and makes a great statement. All my working life, I have found it extremely diff...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I, too, thank Elaine Smith for introducing the bill and for the dedication that she has shown during the process. I also thank the Health Committee clerks fo...
Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
Members need not be nervous, because I will not be using any provocative language. I reiterate that I feel positive about the bill. It is a tremendous achiev...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
I too congratulate Elaine Smith on her determination and application in steering the bill through Parliament. Turning a member's bill into statute is not an ...
Eleanor Scott (Highlands and Islands) (Green):
Green
I add my voice to those that have supported Elaine Smith and commended her for her work. When I had a word with her in the canteen queue the other day, she s...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
It is clear that I can add no expert knowledge on the subject, but I am happy to support Elaine Smith's bill and to congratulate her on her success in taking...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I, too, congratulate Elaine Smith on the way in which she has piloted the bill through the parliamentary process and has kept members regularly informed abou...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
There are breastfeeding facilities in this building. I encourage Conservative members to inspect them as part of their research. The point that I was making ...
Mrs Milne:
Con
I take the member's point and am sorry for misunderstanding it.I will be surprised if the bill makes a significant difference to the number of mums who decid...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Will the member give way?
Mrs Milne:
Con
I am sorry, but I am closing.We fully understand why Elaine Smith has brought the bill to the Parliament, and we applaud her intentions and hard work. Howeve...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like every speaker so far, I pay tribute to Elaine Smith and the work that she has done on the bill over a number of years. I sympathise with her over the br...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
The debate has been good, informed and emotional and key points have been made. The bill is another plank in our public health strategy; it will contribute t...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I realise that we need flexibility but, in my recent experience, many young women have problems with the latching-on process. That might not be possible unti...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
I genuinely believe that our strategies address and understand that situation, and the work that we do in the community—involving a number of the organisatio...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
I have registered interests in relation to the Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Bill. I thank everyone who has contributed to this afternoon's debate, It has bee...