Chamber
Plenary, 26 Jan 2006
26 Jan 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Budget (Scotland) (No 3) Bill: Stage 1
Thanks very much.
I thought that we had had this debate on 21 December and it was only on reflection that I realised that that was the debate on the Finance Committee report at stage 1. Perhaps the case could be made for bringing the two debates together to deal with some of the problems that John Swinney referred to about who can make amendments at what time. It is a little confusing to have a group of budget debates together because it is difficult to know who is discussing what at what time. That is especially the case today because the motion seeks approval for spending plans that have already been announced and discussed. Indeed, there have been plenty of opportunities over the past year to question ministers after ministerial statements and during Executive debates about the way in which the Executive structures its expenditure.
The minister was right to flag up the transparency of the process. When the committee met in Elgin, transparency was one of the points raised during the public session. There is a lack of understanding among the general public—possibly even in the Parliament—of how transparent the budget process is in Scotland compared with how it is elsewhere.
I will comment briefly on Ted Brocklebank's totally selective and suspect use of figures. Attainment in education in Scotland is increasing. I do not deny that there is a problem with the bottom 20 per cent and the Executive has policies to address that, but it is not the case that attainment in education is not increasing.
I was grateful to the Executive for its response to the Finance Committee's report. I flag up one or two points to which I appreciate the minister might not be able to respond immediately although they have arisen from the way in which the Executive responded. I am grateful to the Executive for agreeing to continue to investigate the way in which health boards' allocations are presented to make them more transparent and for agreeing to review the presentation of the cross-cutting information—to which Ted Brocklebank referred—to make it much clearer how portfolios contribute financially to the Executive's cross-cutting objectives.
However, there are one or two things about which I would like to know more. For example, ministers stated in their response that the health board savings of at least 1 per cent are not being deducted "from any existing plans". Does that mean that they are not being deducted at source from the baseline budget before any increases are added for spending pressures or specific projects? That is not exactly the same thing.
Des McNulty mentioned the mechanisms for monitoring the delivery of the partnership agreement and the fact that they are being informed by the approach of the Prime Minister's delivery unit. The Finance Committee took fairly detailed evidence from Professor Barber about the focused way in which progress towards particular targets is being monitored and overseen by the Prime Minister himself in England and Wales, and I wondered how that informing was being translated into practice in the Executive's monitoring of its progress towards implementing the partnership agreement.
It has been clarified that pay provision in education is excluded from efficiency savings, but that is not the same thing as education being excluded from them. At one point, the Finance Committee thought that education itself was excluded. There are issues with making efficiency savings in education, because some councils—including Dumfries and Galloway Council—are making proposals that would reduce the education services that they provide, such as the support for children with additional support needs. We need to monitor that and ensure that cuts in councils' services do not run counter to the Scottish Executive's intentions.
It is still the case that councils are treated differently from Executive departments in having to find the £197 million of efficiency savings from their budgets by 2007-08. The Finance Committee is conducting a short-term inquiry into the effects of the single status agreement and retrospective equal pay claims and I assure the ministers that all members of the committee will be just as rigorous in interrogating council officials and councillors as we are in interrogating ministers. We will not roll over and say that councils should be paid all the money that they demand, but there is definitely an issue with their ability to afford the equal pay claims. COSLA has agreed that the single status agreement is the responsibility of the individual councils, but the councils have a problem in finding what could be larger than anticipated amounts of money for equal pay claims. I call on the ministers and COSLA to have realistic discussions about that. There is no point in councils presenting the Executive with a huge bill and, without substantiating that bill, demanding that it pay up, but it is necessary to continue to have realistic dialogue about how that might be resolved.
I thought that we had had this debate on 21 December and it was only on reflection that I realised that that was the debate on the Finance Committee report at stage 1. Perhaps the case could be made for bringing the two debates together to deal with some of the problems that John Swinney referred to about who can make amendments at what time. It is a little confusing to have a group of budget debates together because it is difficult to know who is discussing what at what time. That is especially the case today because the motion seeks approval for spending plans that have already been announced and discussed. Indeed, there have been plenty of opportunities over the past year to question ministers after ministerial statements and during Executive debates about the way in which the Executive structures its expenditure.
The minister was right to flag up the transparency of the process. When the committee met in Elgin, transparency was one of the points raised during the public session. There is a lack of understanding among the general public—possibly even in the Parliament—of how transparent the budget process is in Scotland compared with how it is elsewhere.
I will comment briefly on Ted Brocklebank's totally selective and suspect use of figures. Attainment in education in Scotland is increasing. I do not deny that there is a problem with the bottom 20 per cent and the Executive has policies to address that, but it is not the case that attainment in education is not increasing.
I was grateful to the Executive for its response to the Finance Committee's report. I flag up one or two points to which I appreciate the minister might not be able to respond immediately although they have arisen from the way in which the Executive responded. I am grateful to the Executive for agreeing to continue to investigate the way in which health boards' allocations are presented to make them more transparent and for agreeing to review the presentation of the cross-cutting information—to which Ted Brocklebank referred—to make it much clearer how portfolios contribute financially to the Executive's cross-cutting objectives.
However, there are one or two things about which I would like to know more. For example, ministers stated in their response that the health board savings of at least 1 per cent are not being deducted "from any existing plans". Does that mean that they are not being deducted at source from the baseline budget before any increases are added for spending pressures or specific projects? That is not exactly the same thing.
Des McNulty mentioned the mechanisms for monitoring the delivery of the partnership agreement and the fact that they are being informed by the approach of the Prime Minister's delivery unit. The Finance Committee took fairly detailed evidence from Professor Barber about the focused way in which progress towards particular targets is being monitored and overseen by the Prime Minister himself in England and Wales, and I wondered how that informing was being translated into practice in the Executive's monitoring of its progress towards implementing the partnership agreement.
It has been clarified that pay provision in education is excluded from efficiency savings, but that is not the same thing as education being excluded from them. At one point, the Finance Committee thought that education itself was excluded. There are issues with making efficiency savings in education, because some councils—including Dumfries and Galloway Council—are making proposals that would reduce the education services that they provide, such as the support for children with additional support needs. We need to monitor that and ensure that cuts in councils' services do not run counter to the Scottish Executive's intentions.
It is still the case that councils are treated differently from Executive departments in having to find the £197 million of efficiency savings from their budgets by 2007-08. The Finance Committee is conducting a short-term inquiry into the effects of the single status agreement and retrospective equal pay claims and I assure the ministers that all members of the committee will be just as rigorous in interrogating council officials and councillors as we are in interrogating ministers. We will not roll over and say that councils should be paid all the money that they demand, but there is definitely an issue with their ability to afford the equal pay claims. COSLA has agreed that the single status agreement is the responsibility of the individual councils, but the councils have a problem in finding what could be larger than anticipated amounts of money for equal pay claims. I call on the ministers and COSLA to have realistic discussions about that. There is no point in councils presenting the Executive with a huge bill and, without substantiating that bill, demanding that it pay up, but it is necessary to continue to have realistic dialogue about how that might be resolved.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-3854, in the name of Tom McCabe, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Budget (Scot...
The Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform (Mr Tom McCabe):
Lab
Today we embark upon the final stage of the 2006-07 budget process. As the Parliament is aware, this is a culmination of seven months of hard work by officia...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
I take the minister back to the point that he made about infrastructure. A significant amount of expenditure in the budget is earmarked for Scottish Water's ...
Mr McCabe:
Lab
I give the Parliament and Mr Swinney the absolute assurance that the Government is determined to ensure that the necessary investment takes place and that an...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Mr McCabe virtually invited me to intervene. At pages 22 and 23 of its report, the Finance Committee calls on the Executive to use additional resources to re...
Mr McCabe:
Lab
We believe that people are dancing in the aisles, because many people and many institutions will do well from this visionary budget. We think that there has ...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
There is much in the budget that the Government has proposed of which we are highly supportive. I encourage the Government to spend the allocations appropria...
Mr McCabe:
Lab
I am interested in Mr Swinney's comments about local government finance. He is right that I am well acquainted with the president of COSLA, with whom I have ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
That may be the case, but on 28 December Mr Watters said that local authorities faced a £400 million black hole in their finances. That does not suggest to m...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD) rose—
LD
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
You must finish now, Mr Swinney.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If Mr Smith had been paying attention earlier, he would have known that I am in my last minute and therefore unable to take an intervention. I am sure that h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You must finish now, Mr Swinney. You are over your last minute.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
People in Scotland face either council tax increases or cuts in local authority services. I encourage ministers to reconsider the local government settlement.
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Our scrutiny of the Executive budget is one of the more important roles that the Parliament undertakes. Perhaps the relatively poor attendance in the chamber...
Mr McCabe:
Lab
Mr Brownlee's comments on education are pertinent. However, when we talk about 53,000 teachers and our other investments in education, it is important to not...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
It is, to some extent, an outcome. However, we would be going down a very long and winding road if we were to accept that point.Mr Swinney and the minister a...
Mr Andrew Arbuckle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
This budget marks another important step in delivering Liberal Democrat policies within the coalition. The detail in the spending of some £28 billion is boun...
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mr Arbuckle:
LD
No—I have only four minutes.Earlier this week, along with colleagues on the Finance Committee, I heard the pleas from COSLA and council officials regarding t...
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
Like Mr Swinney, I have taken part in many budget debates since the Parliament was established, and I readily acknowledge that there have been helpful change...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
Does Mr Adam remember that, three years ago, Nicola Sturgeon went about the process in the right way and the matter was dealt with? The issue is not that the...
Brian Adam:
SNP
I do not accept Mr McNulty's point. I acknowledge that the only previous budget bill amendment that we could debate was lodged by Nicola Sturgeon. However, i...
Mr McCabe:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Brian Adam:
SNP
I will give way if the minister is prepared to supply that information.
Mr McCabe:
Lab
I point out that, over and above the core revenue for local government, there is in excess of £1 billion in other funding streams, many of which address the ...
Brian Adam:
SNP
I note that I did not get an answer about what proportion of the increase in the local government settlement covers new burdens. I hope that, during his wind...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You should be finishing now, Mr Adam.
Brian Adam:
SNP
That amount is way below the mean, as a consequence of which we face very significant cuts in council services, as well as a large rise in council tax. My co...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You must finish, Mr Adam.