Chamber
Plenary, 24 Jun 1999
24 Jun 1999 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Privatisation of Public Services
I will do. I am coming to that, if Mary Scanlon will oblige me.
I had not been in a hospital for 40 years and realised what the royal infirmary's difficulties are. I fully accept and am sympathetic to the bill. The difficulty is that the new infirmary should not be built at any cost to the Scottish public.
We have thoroughly examined the matter of PFI. It is a disgraceful way to finance public services and buildings, and I am astonished at some of the contributions from the likes of John McAllion. I will not requote the quote that has come back to haunt him, but will mention my Labour opponent in the Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale constituency, George McGregor. Speaking as a Unison representative, he said:
"The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary will cost the taxpayer 1.5 billion pounds to fund a hospital which in cost is 190 million pounds. For us, we say that PFI is about getting a mortgage with a loan shark."
Poor George. How that hung like an albatross round his neck during the debates in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale. He did not support PFI, and I know that many on the Labour benches are very unhappy about it. When I sit in this chamber and hear Conservatives congratulating Labour congratulating the Liberal Democrats, I feel that I am in a surreal stage setting.
It is time that the matter was revisited. The SNP proposal is a very good one, the financial aspects of which—like Margaret Smith, I am not an economist—will be developed by Andrew Wilson. I commend the motion.
I had not been in a hospital for 40 years and realised what the royal infirmary's difficulties are. I fully accept and am sympathetic to the bill. The difficulty is that the new infirmary should not be built at any cost to the Scottish public.
We have thoroughly examined the matter of PFI. It is a disgraceful way to finance public services and buildings, and I am astonished at some of the contributions from the likes of John McAllion. I will not requote the quote that has come back to haunt him, but will mention my Labour opponent in the Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale constituency, George McGregor. Speaking as a Unison representative, he said:
"The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary will cost the taxpayer 1.5 billion pounds to fund a hospital which in cost is 190 million pounds. For us, we say that PFI is about getting a mortgage with a loan shark."
Poor George. How that hung like an albatross round his neck during the debates in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale. He did not support PFI, and I know that many on the Labour benches are very unhappy about it. When I sit in this chamber and hear Conservatives congratulating Labour congratulating the Liberal Democrats, I feel that I am in a surreal stage setting.
It is time that the matter was revisited. The SNP proposal is a very good one, the financial aspects of which—like Margaret Smith, I am not an economist—will be developed by Andrew Wilson. I commend the motion.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M67, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on the privatisation of public services. This debate wil...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I have raised the matter of the procedure for Opposition day debates with you before. There has been discussion ab...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
This is the first Opposition day debate that we have had, so we are feeling our way, as in so many other matters. In this case, I have decided that the Execu...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
This morning's debate is extremely significant, although I see that most of my Labour colleagues and all of my Liberal Democrat colleagues take a somewhat di...
The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):
Lab
Will Ms Sturgeon name one PFI project in which that option is not available to the public sector?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
My colleagues, including Margo MacDonald, will return to the issue of the Edinburgh royal infirmary later on, but I believe that it is one. MEMBERS: "Answer ...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
I have listened with interest to Nicola Sturgeon's diatribe against PFI. Perhaps she could explain why Perth and Kinross Council, when it was under SNP contr...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
May I interject?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Certainly.
Members:
Rescue.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
When members settle down,perhaps we will get around to some common sense here. The SNP ensured that Perth and Kinross Council always delivered a process unde...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
It is an intervention in Nicola Sturgeon's speech and must be short.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
Three years ago in Perth and Kinross—there is a question here for Nicola— capital spend was £25 million; this year it is only £12 million. In effect, the han...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
It was only right to allow the former leader of Perth and Kinross Council to intervene. We will be seeing a lot more in the future of the alliance to which h...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
No, I have taken several interventions already. This Parliament can and will hold Sam Galbraith and Susan Deacon responsible and accountable for the state of...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
No, I am winding up.I hope that in the interests of the new politics, Mr McConnell will agree to consider these proposals. He will find that they are infinit...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The Executive has lodged an amendment, which appears on the supplementary business bulletin. I call Jack McConnell to move amendment S1M-67.1.
The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell):
Lab
I start by thanking Nicola, who showed the modesty of Frank McAveety in describing her speech, for the opportunity to reaffirm our plans for modernising publ...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Mr McConnell suggests that his scheme will give flexibility, but I fail to see how that can be achieved under long-term contracts. In many of the areas that ...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
If Brian Adam will bear with me, he will hear something about flexibility. In every case, we decide the length and nature of contracts, so we decide the degr...
Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I suggest to Mr McConnell that he read "Pathfinders to the Parliament", the Government's consultation document that sets out a business agenda for the Parlia...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I do not have to check my civil service brief; I can answer with an example from my constituency. The new hospital in Wishaw— which I hope will be called the...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
The minister said that the £400 million of private finance for schools is in addition to the £600 million that the partnership agreement refers to. That conf...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
That is a misrepresentation of the answer. The £400 million is in addition to the £600 million. If Ms Sturgeon checked her facts, she would understand that b...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Does Jack agree that the STUC and Unison are implacably opposed to PFI?
Mr McConnell:
Lab
They have also played a constructive role in negotiations with the Government and the private companies that are involved in the schemes.
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
Yes or no?
Mr McConnell:
Lab
Tommy might not want to praise the unions for that role, but I would. I can outline a step which will benefit some public sector staff. The Transfer of Under...