Chamber
Plenary, 17 Jan 2001
17 Jan 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I am tempted to use up the remaining time allotted to this debate on the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill, but I will try to contain myself to responding to some of the points that have been raised. It is not often that back benchers get this amount of time to speak in the chamber and I hope that none of my back-bench colleagues will fall out with me if they think that I am not using that time to the full.
We have had a very good debate and I welcome the cross-party support. There has been Executive support for the bill from the word go but, as Margaret Curran suggested, it was very much a case of me chapping at the Executive's doors, vying with Robert Brown—who promoted the Family Homes and Homelessness (Scotland) Bill—to see who would be first to get a bill in this area.
I am interested in this subject. As housing convener and leader of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth District Council, and in the wider North Lanarkshire housing authority area, I saw many families who faced the terrible consequences of repossession. If someone had taken account of all their circumstances when they went to court, and not regarded their cases as black-and-white, right or wrong matters—those people were in arrears, but there were good reasons for it—the shame that many of them felt and the disruption to their lives could have been avoided.
As Brian Adam said, the bill will not just help people who are affected by the problem of repossession; it will help local authorities by easing the strain that they are placed under by having to find housing for those families.
Unaccustomed as I am to having such an opportunity to sum up, I will respond to some of the points that members have raised. I welcome the support of the SNP. I found Fiona Hyslop's description of me as a plaything of the Executive amusing. By raising points that are not relevant to the debate, the only people who played with this serious matter were SNP members. It is like playground politics: who was here first? SNP members claim that they raised this matter first, but if Sandra White and Linda Fabiani check the amendments that they lodged to the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, they will see that the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill goes much further, creates a more rounded approach to the issue, and takes into account the tenants of landlords in default, who are often forgotten.
Fiona Hyslop is right: the committee structure is important for the Parliament. That fact is shown today. I assure members that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee considered the bill in great detail to reach this point. I see that many of its members are here today and want to get involved. The committee structure offers balance and allows members to examine the details, question the evidence, take on board the points that are made, listen to advice and improve the bill.
Fiona Hyslop talked about assistance with drafting. I am grateful for the assistance that the Executive has given me. Certainly I could not have managed to draft the bill on my own—I might have had difficulties paying my debts if I had had to pay for the sort of legal advice that I have received. I am not the first member to receive assistance in drafting a member's bill, either in the Scottish Parliament or at Westminster. At Westminster, if the Government supports a proposed private member's bill, assistance is available. Last week, in the debate on the Leasehold Casualties (Scotland) Bill, Adam Ingram thanked the Executive for its support in drafting and introducing his member's bill.
Fiona Hyslop asked whether ministers knew in July that they would not include anything on this subject in the Housing (Scotland) Bill. We have a joke: it is either my bill or the Housing (Scotland) Bill. Today, it is my bill. I cannot say whether ministers knew the answer to Fiona Hyslop's question. As Margaret Curran said, the Housing (Scotland) Bill is about the provision, funding and regulation of social housing, rather than conveyancing.
I thank Bill Aitken for his kind words about the bill. I will consider the points that he and other members raised when we go through stage 2. He was right to point out that the bill will resolve differences between provision in Scotland and in England.
It has been suggested that some lenders may fear additional costs—for example an increase in the cost of borrowing. I do not think that that will be a major problem. Repossessions impose a cost on lenders, but I am sure that the cost to the borrower is greater. The cost to both lender and borrower will be seen to be minimal as the years go by. It may even be that savings can be made in the costly business of auctioning off properties, given that a borrower is left with little money or a bill—which is more likely at the end of the process.
The Social Justice Committee will have another opportunity to debate the argument about sole residences, which Bill Aitken raised. The right decision has been arrived at—it will be for the courts to establish whether a property is the sole or main residence of a debtor and whether that person would suffer great hardship if they were to lose that property.
Bill Aitken mentioned the level of awareness of the pilot scheme in Edinburgh. I share his view that it is important to take the advice of that scheme and I hope that the Executive will seriously consider doing so. I also hope that the Executive will consider expanding the advice that is available to people who are in difficulty with debt repayment, irrespective of their situation. That point was made to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee by many organisations, and other members have raised it again today. The sooner people can get advice, the better. People should be able to go to friendly advice centres that do not put people off and where workers speak their language and understand them.
I am pleased by the support for the bill given by Robert Brown and the Liberal party, although I wonder whether he shrank a little when Fiona Hyslop defended his position. I welcome his support and the advice and knowledge that he was able to share when the bill was discussed at the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee. Lawyers take a lot of stick, but they can be useful when taking us through the legal minefield. He was right to say—
We have had a very good debate and I welcome the cross-party support. There has been Executive support for the bill from the word go but, as Margaret Curran suggested, it was very much a case of me chapping at the Executive's doors, vying with Robert Brown—who promoted the Family Homes and Homelessness (Scotland) Bill—to see who would be first to get a bill in this area.
I am interested in this subject. As housing convener and leader of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth District Council, and in the wider North Lanarkshire housing authority area, I saw many families who faced the terrible consequences of repossession. If someone had taken account of all their circumstances when they went to court, and not regarded their cases as black-and-white, right or wrong matters—those people were in arrears, but there were good reasons for it—the shame that many of them felt and the disruption to their lives could have been avoided.
As Brian Adam said, the bill will not just help people who are affected by the problem of repossession; it will help local authorities by easing the strain that they are placed under by having to find housing for those families.
Unaccustomed as I am to having such an opportunity to sum up, I will respond to some of the points that members have raised. I welcome the support of the SNP. I found Fiona Hyslop's description of me as a plaything of the Executive amusing. By raising points that are not relevant to the debate, the only people who played with this serious matter were SNP members. It is like playground politics: who was here first? SNP members claim that they raised this matter first, but if Sandra White and Linda Fabiani check the amendments that they lodged to the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, they will see that the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill goes much further, creates a more rounded approach to the issue, and takes into account the tenants of landlords in default, who are often forgotten.
Fiona Hyslop is right: the committee structure is important for the Parliament. That fact is shown today. I assure members that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee considered the bill in great detail to reach this point. I see that many of its members are here today and want to get involved. The committee structure offers balance and allows members to examine the details, question the evidence, take on board the points that are made, listen to advice and improve the bill.
Fiona Hyslop talked about assistance with drafting. I am grateful for the assistance that the Executive has given me. Certainly I could not have managed to draft the bill on my own—I might have had difficulties paying my debts if I had had to pay for the sort of legal advice that I have received. I am not the first member to receive assistance in drafting a member's bill, either in the Scottish Parliament or at Westminster. At Westminster, if the Government supports a proposed private member's bill, assistance is available. Last week, in the debate on the Leasehold Casualties (Scotland) Bill, Adam Ingram thanked the Executive for its support in drafting and introducing his member's bill.
Fiona Hyslop asked whether ministers knew in July that they would not include anything on this subject in the Housing (Scotland) Bill. We have a joke: it is either my bill or the Housing (Scotland) Bill. Today, it is my bill. I cannot say whether ministers knew the answer to Fiona Hyslop's question. As Margaret Curran said, the Housing (Scotland) Bill is about the provision, funding and regulation of social housing, rather than conveyancing.
I thank Bill Aitken for his kind words about the bill. I will consider the points that he and other members raised when we go through stage 2. He was right to point out that the bill will resolve differences between provision in Scotland and in England.
It has been suggested that some lenders may fear additional costs—for example an increase in the cost of borrowing. I do not think that that will be a major problem. Repossessions impose a cost on lenders, but I am sure that the cost to the borrower is greater. The cost to both lender and borrower will be seen to be minimal as the years go by. It may even be that savings can be made in the costly business of auctioning off properties, given that a borrower is left with little money or a bill—which is more likely at the end of the process.
The Social Justice Committee will have another opportunity to debate the argument about sole residences, which Bill Aitken raised. The right decision has been arrived at—it will be for the courts to establish whether a property is the sole or main residence of a debtor and whether that person would suffer great hardship if they were to lose that property.
Bill Aitken mentioned the level of awareness of the pilot scheme in Edinburgh. I share his view that it is important to take the advice of that scheme and I hope that the Executive will seriously consider doing so. I also hope that the Executive will consider expanding the advice that is available to people who are in difficulty with debt repayment, irrespective of their situation. That point was made to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee by many organisations, and other members have raised it again today. The sooner people can get advice, the better. People should be able to go to friendly advice centres that do not put people off and where workers speak their language and understand them.
I am pleased by the support for the bill given by Robert Brown and the Liberal party, although I wonder whether he shrank a little when Fiona Hyslop defended his position. I welcome his support and the advice and knowledge that he was able to share when the bill was discussed at the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee. Lawyers take a lot of stick, but they can be useful when taking us through the legal minefield. He was right to say—
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
We now move to motion S1M-1534, in the name of Cathie Craigie, on the general principles of the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill.
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to move the motion at stage 1 of the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill. I thank all those who have assisted me to prepare and lodge the bill. In p...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Before I call the minister, it might help members if I indicate that the debate should finish by 4 pm. It could, of course, finish earlier. The following deb...
The Minister for Social Justice (Jackie Baillie):
Lab
I take the Presiding Officer's comment as a clear hint to be brief.I congratulate Cathie Craigie, who is evidently a very wise woman, on the introduction of ...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I am also pleased to welcome the debate. The issue has been a long time in gestation in the Parliament—I raised it 18 months ago and sought to change the ver...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
It was made clear at the time that the Executive judges each case on its merits. As Fiona Hyslop knows, the Executive is providing policy assistance to the J...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I acknowledge that, but I have concerns about the Parliament and the way in which bills are introduced. The issue could have been dealt with by the Executive...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I also congratulate Cathie Craigie on the progress of the bill to date and on the way in which she has progressed the debate. She has a fairly consensual att...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I begin by putting on record my membership of the Law Society of Scotland and of Ross Harper and Murphy, in case any interest considerations arise.On behalf ...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I begin by quoting a participant in research that was carried out by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, who stated:"Apart from the death of someone close to us,...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Before I call the next speaker, I should mention that it looks as if the next debate will start six or seven minutes early. Members who are involved in that ...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes the principles of the bill. In fact, we feel that such legislation is long overdue. As Fiona Hyslop said eloquently in her opening speech, t...
The Deputy Minister for Social Justice (Ms Margaret Curran):
Lab
That is not what I was laughing at.
Ms White:
SNP
I know why Margaret Curran is laughing. Well, I shall certainly contest her seat at the next election—she might then be one of the people I am speaking about...
Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):
Lab
I should apologise for my intermittent but persistent coughing during the debate. I know that it can be disruptive for other members, but my health has never...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The primary impact of this bill will, I hope, be on levels of homelessness. The impact will not be massive, but it will be significant for those who are affe...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
We now move to closing speeches. I call Euan Robson to close for the Liberal Democrats.
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
This is an important bill. I congratulate Cathie Craigie, everyone who has been involved in bringing the bill to stage 1 and my colleague Robert Brown, who h...
Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to wind up this debate for the Scottish Conservatives and congratulate Cathie Craigie on introducing her bill.While I support the bill's princip...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like other members, I welcome the introduction of this bill and congratulate Cathie Craigie on it. I was also pleased when the SNP tried to lodge a similar a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We are running ahead of time and the next debate is likely to start a little early.
The Deputy Minister for Social Justice (Ms Margaret Curran):
Lab
It would be remiss of me not to congratulate Cathie Craigie on producing the bill. I, like many others in this chamber, used to be on the Social Inclusion, H...
Robert Brown:
LD
Section 2(2)(b) deals with "the applicant's ability to fulfil . . . the obligations under the"mortgage "within a reasonable period". Does Margaret Curran acc...
Ms Curran:
Lab
My understanding is that sheriffs will have the opportunity to consider people's particular circumstances. That may help to address some of the points that h...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
I am tempted to use up the remaining time allotted to this debate on the Mortgage Rights (Scotland) Bill, but I will try to contain myself to responding to s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Wind up, please.
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Am I to wind up? I cannot believe it. It is true that we must deal with the procedures that are followed before people get to court. Karen Whitefield and Rob...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Quickly, please.
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Paul Brown, who works for the Scottish Association of Law Centres, gave me some help and advice in the bill's early days. He reckoned that the bill will prob...