Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 22 May 2024
22 May 2024 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1
Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2024 of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. We have apologies from Stephanie Callaghan. Agenda item 1 is our final oral evidence session on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. I welcome Kate Forbes, Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic; and, from the Scottish Government, Claire Cullen, head of Gaelic and Scots; Douglas Ansdell, team leader, Gaelic and Scots; Nico McKenzie-Juetten, lawyer, school education division, legal directorate; and Ninian Christie, lawyer, economy and social protection division, legal directorate. We will begin with a short opening statement from the Deputy First Minister.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Sue Webber)
Con
Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2024 of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. We have apologies from Stephanie Calla...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes)
SNP
Mòran taing, agus madainn mhath a bhuill. Tha e na urram mòr dhomh gun deach mo chur an dreuchd mar Rùnaire a’ Chaibineit airson na h-Eaconamaidh agus Gàidh...
The Convener
Con
I am sorry, Deputy First Minister, but we will have to pause, because the interpretation is not coming through.
Kate Forbes
SNP
Tha mi gu math duilich, ach tha sin ceart gu leòr. 09:31 Meeting suspended. 09:32 On resuming—
The Convener
Con
We are back after that short suspension for a technical issue. We begin again with a statement from the Deputy First Minister.
Kate Forbes
SNP
Mòran taing, agus madainn mhath a bhuill. Tha e na urram mòr dhomh gun deach mo chur an dreuchd mar Rùnaire a’ Chaibineit airson na h-Eaconamaidh agus Gàidh...
The Convener
Con
We will move straight to questions from committee members.
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning to the Deputy First Minister and your officials. I appreciated your opening statement. A lot of what you said was about work that is already goi...
Kate Forbes
SNP
I see the bill as necessary, but it is not the full picture of what is required for our aims to revitalise and support Gaelic. The committee has taken extens...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Thank you. Some of the evidence that we have had has supported what you just said, but it has also been suggested that the bill represents incremental and qu...
Kate Forbes
SNP
In responding to that question, I will make a number of points, the first of which is to do with the area of linguistic significance, which is really critica...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
A report that you commissioned said that “The needs of the Gaelic language must be considered more fully across all areas of public policy and all levers, c...
Kate Forbes
SNP
Traditionally, Gaelic policy has nearly always sat within education or culture. I am chuffed that I have responsibility for the economy and for Gaelic, becau...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Can I interrupt you, Deputy First Minister? I appreciate what you are saying, but do you think that it is disappointing that the bill does not include housin...
Kate Forbes
SNP
The bill has to be focused; it should not say so much that it does not mean anything. I said earlier that the bill has a specific aim. I will take on board t...
The Convener
Con
In your letter to the Finance and Public Administration Committee, you stated: “By providing leadership, focus and priority across public bodies further pro...
Kate Forbes
SNP
I think that legislation is needed. There has been a groundswell of support and there is an appetite for legislation that reinforces the responsibilities tha...
The Convener
Con
You said that the bill has a focused aim, but many have come to the committee and told us that it is largely symbolic. What is your response to that?
Kate Forbes
SNP
I would not be content with a bill that is just symbolic. The protection that the bill will give the rights of a minority language is not just symbolic; it i...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
SNP
Madainn mhath. The Deputy First Minister will be aware that we have heard various opinions on the view that Gaelic is in crisis. Some people have found usin...
Kate Forbes
SNP
It is helpful to start with the data. I do not like reducing people or language to data, but the census figures show that, in the past 10 years, the number o...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
Thank you. That is helpful. The 2017 Welsh language strategy has a timeframe up to 2050. Will you articulate the Government’s aims for Scots and Gaelic in t...
Kate Forbes
SNP
I followed what was happening in Wales closely long before I had this job. I recall a conversation with the then Welsh language minister, who said that their...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
People’s having some skills in Gaelic and Gaelic being a community language are different things, albeit that they are not completely separate, because one f...
Kate Forbes
SNP
Yes. If officials want to come in on consultation of communities, they should feel free to do so. My understanding is that there has been extensive engagemen...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)
Green
My question follows on quite neatly from that point, because I am interested in how we are actually going to measure success and what the outcomes will look ...
Kate Forbes
SNP
The primary measure will be what is captured in the census. I do not know whether this exists already, but we might need to think about how to go beyond the ...
Ross Greer
Green
Should the bill include reporting provisions? I completely agree that having blunt national targets could undermine the more nuanced approach that is needed ...
Kate Forbes
SNP
It is an excellent idea that we consider how to adapt what already exists. At the moment, Bòrd na Gàidhlig has to report to ministers and Parliament. Your po...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, cabinet secretary. In response to Ross Greer, you talked about the importance of outcomes. Comunn na Gàidhlig has suggested that a powerful and...