Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 22 May 2024
22 May 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
So you need legislation for some things, but do you need training for other bits? Is there a lack of training in some areas? One of our witnesses heard that he had been put on to restricted duties, but he was never told why; since then, we have heard more evidence that there was no reason why that should have happened. I find it hard to believe that somebody could be either suspended or put on restricted duties without being told why. Is there a training or performance management issue there?
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning. Our business is the continuation...
Fiona McQueen (Scottish Police Authority Board)
Good morning, convener and committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to attend and give evidence on stage 1 of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutin...
The Convener
SNP
That is a comprehensive and helpful opening statement. I will start with a question. You spoke about Lady Elish’s significant work, which underpins where we ...
Katharina Kasper (Scottish Police Authority)
Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to give evidence. That is a pertinent question that the complaints and conduct committee of the SPA very much ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. You have set out a lot of elements in terms of ultimately monitoring and improving the way that complaints are handled. Can you give any examples ...
Katharina Kasper
Yes, absolutely. The learnings probably fall into two broad categories. There will be learnings for the complaints handling process per se—how to improve the...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. My final question on that is about the bill. From the perspective of the conduct and complaints committee, which provisions in the bill will help ...
Katharina Kasper
The bill is at a relatively high level, so some secondary legislation may well provide more direct impact on the work of the committee. However, one very cle...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I will now bring in other members.
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, panel. Much of the SPA’s position seems to be supportive of the PIRC getting new powers and even taking on some of the responsibilities that cu...
Robin Johnston (Scottish Police Authority)
I am not aware of direct conversations at the legal level, but they could be facilitated. The approach that we have taken to the Angiolini review is that we...
Russell Findlay
Con
A similar theme arises in respect of the proposed police barred and advisory lists. The bill proposes that those would be managed by the SPA. The SPA’s posit...
Robin Johnston
We completely support the barred and advisory lists. The point that we made is that Police Scotland’s present infrastructure, which deals with vetting, lends...
Russell Findlay
Con
We have heard evidence from former police officers and members of the public of a lack of trust in Police Scotland on some occasions, and the SPA and Police ...
Robin Johnston
There is an argument for that, but in order for that argument to succeed, there has to be a reasonable suspicion that, for some reason, Police Scotland will ...
Russell Findlay
Con
The bill also proposes a duty of candour, which the SPA supports. However, from its submission, it is not clear whether the SPA supports the off-duty duty of...
Robin Johnston
The SPA does not have a particular stance on whether the duty should apply to off-duty officers. We raised the issue because the pre-bill consultation asked ...
Russell Findlay
Con
Does the SPA have a view on whether the duty should apply to police staff and non-police officers?
Robin Johnston
We take the view of the PIRC, in its written submission to the committee. It talks about the duty of candour applying to a particular kind of police staff—po...
Russell Findlay
Con
Thank you. Ms McQueen, in your opening remarks, you talked about the importance of the process being transparent, efficient and fair for the public and polic...
Robin Johnston
I am probably best placed to answer that question. The bill goes as far as it can in relation to whistleblowing, because employment law is reserved to Westmi...
Russell Findlay
Con
Inaudible.—blaming Westminster legislation for 10 years of hell in the police complaints process, you know.
Robin Johnston
No, I am sure that that is the case, but I am talking about the content of the bill and how it might assist whistleblowers. So, there is that provision in th...
Russell Findlay
Con
Section 6 of the bill will allow for the continuation of gross misconduct proceedings once an officer retires or resigns. In response to that, your submissio...
Robin Johnston
The bill provides some basic details. I expect that the bulk of the provisions will be in revised conduct regulations. In terms of a definition of public int...
Russell Findlay
Con
I have perhaps misunderstood the written submission. Are you saying that the public interest test would apply only in cases after the 12-month period had ela...
Robin Johnston
If the approach that is being taken in England and Wales is anything to go by, what would happen mandatorily is that every gross misconduct allegation that i...
The Convener
SNP
I know that you have more questions, Mr Findlay, but I will bring in other members at this point and we can perhaps come back to you later.
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Fiona McQueen, in your opening statement you said that the bill possibly does not go far enough and that not all of Lady Elish’s recommendations have been me...
Fiona McQueen
I will answer your second question, and Katharina Kasper can answer your first question, if that is okay. On the point about institutionalised discriminatio...