Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 18 March 2025
18 Mar 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Public Sector Equality Duty
Finally, I have noted that you have said that you want to provide leadership on the PSED and that you want to put your money where your mouth is, yet 80 per cent of respondents to the committee’s call for evidence said that public bodies do not understand and have not implemented the PSED properly. So, there is an issue with public bodies. During the previous evidence session, the EHRC said that there was an issue with the education sector and we have highlighted an issue with hospitals. I have also talked about big issues with Police Scotland.
In relation to the lack of implementation of the PSED, your leadership and putting your money where your mouth is, should you and/or the Scottish Government not suspend the pay rises of the leadership of those public sector bodies that are allegedly in breach of their duties? As a head of HR, if there were a specific issue in a part of an organisation, I could not take money off people, but I could and would suspend pay rises. If you have concerns and you are providing leadership, would it not be a practical thing to say, “Hang on a minute, let’s just suspend pay increases and review the implementation of PSED?”
12:45In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the eighth meeting in 2025 in session 6 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have no apologies today. ...
John Wilkes (Equality and Human Rights Commission Scotland)
Thank you, convener. I thank the committee for the opportunity to give evidence to this inquiry into the effectiveness of the public sector equality duties i...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much. We will now move to questions, and I will start us off. Over the period of our inquiry, we have noted that public authorities generally...
John Wilkes
I am going to hand over to Bill Stevenson, who leads on this area and has lots of observations that will help the committee.
Bill Stevenson (Equality and Human Rights Commission Scotland)
When we consider compliance with the PSED, we need to split the issue into two distinct parts. First, there is top-line compliance—in other words, do public ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much. We will move on to questions from Tess White.
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
When we looked at the feedback from the committee’s call for evidence on the PSED, we found that 80 per cent of the respondents indicated that public bodies ...
John Wilkes
I am not clear what organisations you might be referring to, but I think that public bodies, in setting their equality outcomes, need to consider the equalit...
Tess White
Con
I think that you have answered the question, thank you. That is really helpful. You talked about organisations that offer. What about the organisations that...
John Wilkes
Ultimately, it is down to the individual public authority to gather as much evidence and data as it can from whatever sources that it feels are appropriate a...
Tess White
Con
So the data is important.
John Wilkes
Yes.
Tess White
Con
Do you agree—a yes or no answer would be helpful—that impact assessments of policies or policy changes that affect sex-based rights should involve input from...
John Wilkes
It is important that any public authority that is looking at a policy initiative or a service provision initiative should be doing an equality impact assessm...
Tess White
Con
You used the word “balance” at the start, so my final question on this is, do you agree that when doing impact assessments—which are very important for the P...
John Wilkes
That can be the situation. One of the requirements of public authorities in that regard is to take evidence and to consult with communities. I watched some o...
Tess White
Con
What about balance and prioritising one protected characteristic over another?
John Wilkes
It depends on which policy or service you are looking at, but you would expect to get a range of inputs from people with different protected characteristics ...
Tess White
Con
But data is important.
John Wilkes
Data is very important to this—absolutely.
Tess White
Con
Thank you.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Good morning. Thank you for joining us this morning and for your comments so far. I will pick up on points about consistency and the overall impact. John, i...
Bill Stevenson
I think that the figures that you are referring to may be quite old. As John Wilkes said earlier, measuring up ran from 2013 to 2017. If that is the source, ...
Maggie Chapman
Green
I suppose that that thematic or sectoral approach allows you to get into the nitty-gritty with the different agencies and authorities involved. That kind of ...
John Wilkes
A lot of the protected characteristics represent a range of different things. Disability, as a global term, represents a range of physical and neurological d...
Maggie Chapman
Green
If there are particular groups that are having difficulties realising their equalities rights and human rights, is PSED the right tool to ensure that we, as ...
John Wilkes
Like any tool, the PSED can be quite blunt. A lot of the issues with compliance relate to compliance with process. Our view is that we should move into a pha...
Maggie Chapman
Green
You mentioned the Gypsy Traveller community, which is one group of people with protected characteristics that, for a range of reasons, often falls through th...
John Wilkes
It is correct that the public sector equality duty applies to everybody who happens to be here, irrespective of their immigration status. That is not always ...
Maggie Chapman
Green
It is about public authorities understanding that the PSED could be a tool but that it will not necessarily solve problems relating to someone’s immigration ...