Hansard

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

16 Dec 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

I have a question. I understand what you say about the pragmatism in that approach, but drafting the bill in such a way as to ensure that compatibility with the UNCRC was not, or could not be, entertained seems odd—it is odd at best and problematic at worst. This is the first ...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

16 Dec 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

I will be brief. It is worth stressing my and many others’ disappointment that, by choosing to amend the 1980 act, the cabinet secretary has ensured that the provisions covered by the bill are out of scope of the compatibility duty in our own United Nations Convention on the R...

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Chamber

25 Nov 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

This Parliament has taken significant strides in promoting children’s rights. After three years of delay caused by a petty UK Government, last year we enshrined the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into Scots law. Previously, my Green colleague John Finnie ensured tha...

Maggie Chapman Green Chamber

17 Feb 2026

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill

I am talking about part 2 of the bill, which is not about religious observance. However, on that point, we believe that there should be separation of church and state. There is nothing in the bill to prevent religious observance by children and young people who wish to take pa...

Maggie Chapman Green Chamber

17 Feb 2026

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

During the committee’s scrutiny of the bill, we consistently heard that a key safeguard to the exemption in section 6B would be a statutory duty to notify the Scottish Government, the children’s commissioner and the Scottish Human Rights Commission when the exemption might be ...

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Chamber

27 Jun 2023

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill (Reconsideration)

I thank the cabinet secretary for advance sight of her statement and for the conversations that we have had about the issue since she came into post. She has outlined the deeply regrettable loss of coverage of rights where the compatibility duty will not apply. What other mech...

Maggie Chapman Green Chamber

14 Sep 2023

United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill

The cabinet secretary has just outlined that we will not be able to act in Scotland to uphold children’s rights under the compatibility duty if it is determined that powers are with the UK Government and UK Government legislation. What does she think that that means for the ri...

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Committee

26 Sep 2024

Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I thank the cabinet secretary for the conversations that we have had about the bill in the run-up to stage 2. I will be speaking to amendments 58, 99 and 103, the substantive one being amendment 58. At the outset, I say that I believe in au...

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning, and thank you for joining us. I thank Stephen Allison for his comments, which I echo. I was appalled by the situation that Leah Rivka described. That should not happen in any school in any situation. Barbara Coupar, you said that it was interesting and important...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thank you—that was helpful. I suppose that we are talking about some of the tensions that folk have outlined. If there was strong disagreement between a child and their parent about how they wanted to develop their spirituality, their freedom of expression or their freedom of ...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I put that question to the other witnesses. Given the sensitivities, tensions and potential conflicts that some of you have identified, how will society be able to support children to express their rights, as enshrined in the UNCRC, particularly those in articles 12 and 14?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks very much for that. It is important to note that, just because things are not brought to the surface, it does not mean that they are not rumbling underneath. Some of the examples that you have given highlight the broader issues of stigmatisation, othering and just not f...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is actually my next question. We know that the UN’s Committee on the Rights of the Child has twice in the past seven or eight years strongly recommended that we have an opt-out option. What are your thoughts on that? Claire Benton-Evans, you have made it very clear that ...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

And all the safety issues.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thank you—that is clear. Does anybody else want to comment on the opt in, opt out question?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is a really helpful suggestion. We will take it away and tease it out. I will leave it there, convener.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning, and thank you for joining us. You may have heard, in the earlier evidence session, quite a lot of discussion about the potential conflict between parents’ rights as primary educators of their children and children’s rights to free expression of their spiritual or...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Dr Sanchez, you have been quite clear that, in your view, the mandating of RO is the main issue, and that the distinction between RO and RME is important. Fraser, what would your solution be, if not the provisions in the bill? Given the guidance and the statutory obligations...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks very much. My final question perhaps follows on from some of Pam Gosal’s questions about consistency and the issues across the board. I hear the views about whether or not we should have RO but, given that we do, how best can headteachers, schools, local authorities and...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

You are looking at the statutory enforcement route.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Yes, but as long as we have it, would that be the route?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Okay, that is helpful. Thank you.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks to you both.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning to the panel. Thank you very much for joining us and for your contributions so far. It is quite clear from what Caitlin Fitzgerald has said and from Rachel Fox’s comments that there is a need to disaggregate RO and RME. We have heard the same from other witnesses...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks, Angela. That is really helpful. Rachel, I know that you want to comment, and I am happy to bring you in.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks, Rachel. That is really helpful. It is important for us to bear that in mind as we consider the bill. You mentioned the child’s increase in agency and the receding of parental rights as that happens. What mechanism do you envisage will enable that to be supported? Is it...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is helpful. We heard in the earlier sessions this morning about some of the challenges that schools might face in facilitating such discussions. For example, anxiety may be expressed by both parents and children, or by either parents or children, in different situations. ...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Are there things that we can do in legislation to support those conversations and to prevent the stigmatising or othering, or the singling out, of individuals, whether those are the children or the parents?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is helpful. I saw Angela O’Hagan nodding vehemently as you were speaking. Angela, do you want to come back in on that?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I think that we all ruminate on that in the committee. Do any other witnesses want to comment on those rights questions?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That fundamental has to be our starting point.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is really helpful. Elaine, do you want to comment on that? You do not have to, but you are welcome to if you want to add anything.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

30 Sep 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thank you. I will leave it there, convener.

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning, and thank you for joining us. I am interested in exploring a little more about how things work now, and what the bill could do. What do the young people you work with tell you about the right to withdraw from RO and RME—I take the point about their conflation in...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I will come to Gavin Yates and Louise Church soon. Gina, you talked about the evidence that we have had from children about their experience, and their families’ experiences, of discrimination. Are you aware of any evidence of parents or children worrying about being othered o...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

What do you think, Gavin? 09:45

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is exactly one of the things that we heard from our witnesses last week—that schools are not necessarily equipped to deal with this. That might be one reason why they do not make too much of an issue of it.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Louise Church, I have the same kind of question for you. In your experience and that of your MSYP colleagues, and from your general discussions, how are arrangements working in schools at the moment? You are closer to having been through school than any of us in the room, so I...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

On the last point that you made, what would a good process that is not intimidating look like? What would that feel like for young people?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks, Louise. That is really helpful. My final question is to any panel member. You have all said in different ways that we do not have evidence of high numbers of withdrawals in the process as it currently works. That could be because of a lack of awareness, stigmatisation ...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Louise Church, is there anything else that you want to add about how things are working at the moment or how we record information?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Okay. Thanks, folks—I will leave my questions there.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning and thank you for joining us. I thank Douglas Hutchison for clearly articulating what I think we have heard from every panel, and probably every individual witness, since we started our scrutiny of the bill, on the distinction between religious observance and reli...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is helpful. From the point of view of young people and their families, in your experience and from speaking to other teachers, have young people been reluctant to approach a member of staff, because they do not want to be stigmatised, othered or marked out as different? D...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I put the same question to Douglas Hutchison. From your point of view, how is the current system working? What are some of the challenges or pitfalls?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

On the first panel, it was suggested that there has never been a thematic review of religious observance in schools, and certainly not recently, although it may well have been done prior to the 1980 act. Would ADES support or consider a review, given what you have said about t...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

From your experience, is there a systematic way of recording withdrawals from RO or RME? Are you aware of schools collating data on that in a standardised way?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

In that small number of schools, or elsewhere, are you aware of any questions or concerns that parents, young people or teachers have observed around the stigmatising or othering of young people if their parents withdraw them?

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

It might, however, be an issue if there were one individual, rather than that clear community with a strong identity. From what we heard last week, people are perhaps unwilling even to raise the issue for fear of stigmatisation or othering. However, that is not your experience.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Okay.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

07 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks. That is helpful. I will leave it there.

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Good morning, cabinet secretary and officials. Thank you for joining us this morning. I have a couple of questions on slightly different but related points. I will stick with part 1 for now. Many stakeholders have said that the bill conflates religious observance with religiou...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I was not suggesting that RME be put on a statutory footing.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

However, there is clear agreement that RME is distinct, and you said in your opening remarks that RME and RO are distinct. RME is a core part of curriculum for excellence, so why not take the opportunity to separate them in law? I am not saying that we should put one of them o...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

We will come to that issue.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thank you. There will be different views on whether the matter could be dealt with through the bill. Linked to that, given the concluding observations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which has twice—in 2016 and in 2023—suggested that children should have the ri...

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Yes.

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thanks, cabinet secretary. However, in coming to that middle ground, there is a risk that you do not appease anyone and that you do not make anybody happy by—

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

It is interesting that you talk about strengthening children’s rights and yet you are not proposing to give children that independent right. However—

Maggie Chapman Green Committee

28 Oct 2025

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

—I accept that your position is where you are just now. In a slightly different space—this might have an impact on the numbers and awareness of the right, which other members will speak about—there was concern about whether young people might feel othered by some of the conve...