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Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

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1999–2026
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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
21 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
It will absolutely affect those people. Indeed, some of my amendments talk about that, and I have mentioned the issue many times in committee and in this chamber. We must have balanced rights for everyone. I come from a minority ethnic background; I will talk about that and ab...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
12 Mar 2025
Single-sex Spaces (Public Sector)
I thought you were going to give me a minute more, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was really excited there. As we just marked international women’s day on Saturday, this debate, which has been brought by the Scottish Conservatives, could not be more timely. Since being elected ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
22 Nov 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
As I said previously, I recognise that improvements to the gender recognition process would be beneficial for trans people. However, my job here is to ensure that the bill, once enacted, is balanced. As it stands, the bill does not strike a balance and instead puts women, girl...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
27 Oct 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have said that I will not take interventions. The proposed bill is ill thought out, ill considered and, worst of all, unpredictable. It seeks to remove any medical oversight and opens the process to a group of unknown size and characteristics. Perhaps there is no perfect an...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
31 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank the panel members for their opening statements and their written evidence. I will touch on something that youse have all mentioned, which is single-sex spaces. Two weeks ago, we heard from the EHRC that individuals who acquire a GRC can access single-sex spaces for wom...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
19 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
Thank you, Victor. To add to that question, I highlight that the Muslim Council of Scotland has written a letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, in which it states: “For Muslims, where protected single sex spaces are a religious requ...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Mar 2026
Portfolio Question Time · Violence Against Women and Girls
The United Kingdom Supreme Court ruled that single-sex spaces based on biological sex are lawful and that spaces are single sex only if the opposite sex is excluded. However, Scottish Prison Service policy still allows some biological males who identify as women to be held in ...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
22 Jan 2025
Safety in Schools
I am grateful to be able to speak on such an important issue. Violent and disruptive behaviour in Scotland’s schools has become an epidemic. In 2023 alone, school staff reported almost 45,000 instances of violence and abuse, with 200 staff being physically or verbally abused e...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
31 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good afternoon and thank you for your opening statements and the evidence that you have provided. I want to go back to the issue that Pam Duncan-Glancy has just asked about and probe it a little bit more. Sandy Brindley, you have talked about single-sex spaces and service pro...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
21 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
As this is the final group, I will try to deliver to the best of my ability, bearing in mind that it is nearly midnight and I am feeling slightly tired. Data collection is key to understanding and analysing the impact of the bill. As was made clear by the UN special rapporteu...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
28 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have just two more questions, on single-sex spaces and on religion. The committee has heard concerns—obviously, you have heard them as well—that the system of self-declaration will open up the bill to abuse by bad-faith actors who could invade women’s single-sex spaces. Wha...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
22 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
I have been sitting on the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee since it began taking evidence on the bill. I have heard, seen and felt at first hand the impact that the bill is already having on women. As I have said many times, good legislation is about balan...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
20 Feb 2025
First Minister’s Question Time · School Premises (General Requirements and Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1967
Too many times in the chamber we have heard the Scottish National Party dismiss concerns about the safety of women and girls. Instead of safeguarding single-sex spaces such as school toilets, the SNP has spent years trying to undermine them, all in the name of dangerous gender...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
22 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you for being so honest about that, Senator Doherty. In looking at our bill now, we have a good opportunity to look at those areas. I want to go back to what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy spoke about in relation to the work that you did with groups around accessing ser...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
28 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
First, I want to ask a supplementary question on the back of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s questions about single-sex spaces. Cabinet secretary, you have made it clear that single-sex spaces are not affected by the bill. Do you think that the Government or you in particular could have...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
17 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Melanie Field for her opening statement. The Scottish Government asserts that the bill will not change rights under the 2010 act, but it has not produced a reasoned explanation for its position. The EHRC’s letter of July 2021 to the Trans Legal Project says: “we think...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
21 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have one more question. Are there any international comparisons, whether from Europe or outside Europe, that you have made with regard to religious rights? Obviously we have to ensure that we do not take anyone’s rights away, whether they be trans or religious rights, and th...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
28 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you. I have previously asked how section 22 interferes with freedom of religion—for instance, where it goes against a woman’s religious practices to be touched by a man. I have given the example of a woman who goes into a doctor’s surgery for a smear test. You can ask f...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
28 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Lastly, we heard in private from an organisation that said that this change would drive women, especially from ethnic minority groups, more underground, because they would not go into many single-sex spaces such as changing rooms. Do you believe that if those women cannot have...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
To be clear, parts 1, 2 and 4 of the bill are based on models that are in operation already in Scotland. Part 2, on assessment of offenders for rehabilitation programmes and services, and part 4, on education, seek to ensure that the provisions for rehabilitation assessments a...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
24 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
My next question is for Bruce Adamson and Ellie Gomersall. Last week, we heard from the Equality and Human Rights Commission that individuals who acquire a GRC can access women’s and girls’ single-sex spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, refuges and hospital wards, and tha...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
12 Mar 2025
International Women’s Day 2025
I thank Audrey Nicoll for bringing the motion to the chamber. I also take this opportunity to thank all the excellent organisations that have the courage to stand up for women’s rights, including For Women Scotland, Women’s Rights Network Scotland, Sex Matters, Murray Blackbur...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
19 Jun 2025
Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Question Time · Parliament Facilities (Interim Policy)
Let us be clear—we are talking about the United Kingdom Supreme Court. The law is the law, and nobody is above it. This morning, the EHRC was on a call to MSPs and stated very clearly that public bodies should comply with the law now. Sex Matters has warned that it will come a...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
19 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill
In your letter, you say that ring-fenced funding should be available for single-sex and gender-based service providers. Although it was determined that that was outwith the scope of the bill, do you think that it would be helpful to amend the bill so that the Scottish Governme...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
18 Mar 2025
Public Sector Equality Duty
I want to probe that point. You talk about dignity and respect, and in one of your answers, you said that, as you are a woman of BAME background, like me, you know when an issue is affected by certain religious aspects. Last week, I said that Governments and organisations wer...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Yes. I think that I have already covered such stats. I found, from speaking to many organisations and especially to individuals, that they felt that the bill would have a deterrent effect and that the person might not reoffend. They felt that, had the proposed legislation been...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As you know, not all domestic abuse offenders are being monitored under MAPPA. The minister could not provide an answer on that point when I put it to her on 17 December. Indeed, the Scottish Government admitted that 95 per cent of those who are monitored by MAPPA are sex offe...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
31 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have a supplementary question on that, before I come back to Lucy Hunter Blackburn. I want to talk a bit about religion. You just mentioned carers. There is an issue that deeply concerns me as someone from an Indian religion. I will have to word this in the right way in orde...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
21 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good morning to the panel. Thank you for your opening statements and the information that you have provided. On the back of what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy has been talking about, what are your thoughts on the system being open to abuse by bad-faith actors who wish to gain...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
21 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The committee has heard from many witnesses that they have a worry that the bill will exclude women and girls in minority groups from accessing single-sex services and spaces. What is your view on that, Barbara?
Pam Gosal Con Committee
18 Mar 2025
Public Sector Equality Duty
Thank you. You talked about guidance. Is the law clear on that? I am considering what is happening out there—obviously without talking about a specific case. Is it clear that your guidance states what it states and that the people and organisations that provide services must c...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
18 Mar 2025
Public Sector Equality Duty
I have a few other questions. You touched on domestic abuse, minister. I have spoken to countless survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse. Many of those women do not feel comfortable when surrounded by men and have stressed the importance of single-sex spaces. Do you be...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
18 Mar 2025
Public Sector Equality Duty
Please do discuss them, because the situation right now is not very fair for women and girls out there. They do not have their dignity, respect or fairness right now, because they have to share single-sex spaces and services in many places. I hope that the Government will prov...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
29 Apr 2025
Motion to Remove a Member of the Committee
I thank my colleague Tess White for lodging the motion, which recommends “that the Parliament remove Maggie Chapman MSP from office as a member of the Committee.” I agree with the points that Tess White has made and I will vote for the motion. As parliamentarians, it is our...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
06 May 2025
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
I have two supplementaries, following on from Tess White’s questions. Minister, the recent decisions by the UK Supreme Court in London and by the Court of Session in Edinburgh have made it clear that women and girls need to be protected. Single-sex spaces and services are vit...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
06 May 2025
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
Minister, when you have been in the committee in the past, we have spoken about budgeting across all the departments and asked how we ensure that, throughout its work, each department adheres to women’s rights and other rights. Can you guarantee that every department will impl...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
30 Sep 2025
Urgent Question · “Supporting Transgender Pupils In Schools” (Consultation)
Yesterday, the Scottish National Party Government published new guidance that was meant to give schools clarity about how boys’ and girls’ toilets and changing room facilities should be provided. Yet, instead of finally protecting single-sex spaces, the muddled new SNP guidanc...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
28 Oct 2025
International Development
The First Minister likes to preach about gender equality and the rights of women and girls when he is abroad. However, women and girls here in Scotland will not forget how they were treated by the First Minister’s Government. The SNP Scottish Government has chosen to embrace g...
2. Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
29 Jan 2026
General Question Time · National Health Service (Single-sex Spaces)
::To ask the Scottish Government, regarding any implications for its policy on single-sex spaces in the NHS in Scotland, what its response is to the recent ruling in the case brought by eight nurses at Darlington Memorial hospital. (S6O-05436)
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
14 Jun 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good morning, panel. Thank you for your opening remarks and for the information that you have provided. In particular, Karon Monaghan was very knowledgeable in breaking down where a GRC applies and does not apply and the relationship between gender and sex. My question follow...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
02 Dec 2025
Violence against Women and Girls
Every year since I entered the Parliament in 2021, I have spoken in debates on sex-based violence and on the 16 days of activism. However, sadly, things are not any better today—in fact, they are getting worse. The theme of this year’s 16 days of activism is “UNiTE to end dig...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
29 Jan 2026
General Question Time · National Health Service (Single-sex Spaces)
::The Darlington employment tribunal found that employers had indirectly discriminated against female nurses when they allowed a biological male to use single-sex changing areas. That case re-emphasises what we already know: the definition of a woman is based on biological sex...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
12 Mar 2024
Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As a member of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee, I am pleased to contribute to this important debate on the Housing (Cladding Remediation) (Scotland) Bill. I also place on record my thanks to everyone who gave evidence and to the clerks for all their work. ...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
21 Dec 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
My mission, since I stepped into the Scottish Parliament, has been to ensure that communities—whether BAME communities, people with disabilities or other marginalised communities—no longer go unheard. This Parliament is supposed to be striving to be more accountable, diverse a...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
05 Nov 2024
Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26
Minister, how was the decision made to analyse data on the basis of gender as opposed to sex? Will you outline how the terms “sex” and “gender” should be defined when making policy and budgetary decisions?
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
14 Nov 2024
General Question Time · Gender Inequality (Data Collection)
Last week, at committee, I asked the minister how the decision to use gender instead of sex came about. Instead of answering my question, the minister asked her officials to respond. I have still not received an answer to my question. We also found out last week that, of the l...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
06 May 2025
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
It is very good to hear that you will move at pace because, as I said, this is about protection. It is also about rights, so there could be more court cases. I wrote to you asking whether the Scottish Government will implement the recommendations of the Sullivan review on col...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
25 Jun 2025
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good morning. I introduced the Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill in May 2025, following the usual members’ bill process and with the support of the non-Government bills unit. Growing up, I remember going into my mum’s shop in Argyle Street in Glasgow and seeing wom...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
25 Jun 2025
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have had a good look to see what evidence is out there. Sex offenders are already subject to notification requirements, as you know, and there is significant evidence that they are less likely to reoffend. The latest statistics show that around 8.8 per cent of sex offenders ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
25 Jun 2025
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
To go back to your question about whether my provision was modelled on the sex offenders register, I should say that it was not fully modelled on that. I listened to what survivors out there said that they wanted. The fact is that the onus is on them to contact authorities, wh...
Pam Gosal Con Chamber
02 Dec 2025
Violence against Women and Girls
At the same time, the SNP refuses to call for a grooming gangs inquiry, all in the name of political correctness, and chooses to bury its head in the sand as if grooming gangs are not a problem. The problem is not going away, but the SNP keeps kicking the can down the road. Th...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
03 Feb 2026
Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Ash Regan for introducing the Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill and acknowledge her passion and all the hard work that she has done on the bill and on the rights of women and girls generally. Introducing a private member’s bill is not an easy process,...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con Committee
13 Jan 2026
Public Sector Equality Duty
Good morning. Thank you for the information that you have provided so far. Can you confirm that the commission has changed its position on recording sex based on self-identification—which has been the case since the publication of the chief statistician’s guidance in 2021—and ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
In my opening statement and in response to questions, I have said that we cannot just think about it as being a substitute. Right now, only some domestic abuse offenders are being monitored, and that is not good enough. We need a proper system that automatically puts serious a...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Absolutely, convener. It is important that, in light of the evidence-taking sessions that the committee has had, it is open to us to consider where the bill can be amended. That is why bills go through stages 1, 2 and 3 in the Parliament. I know that there are processes in pl...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I repeat that I do not accept that. I am going to be honest here, Mr Kerr. Let us look at the sex offenders register. Do you think that perpetrators want to be on it? Do you not think that perpetrators are angry about it? We cannot shy away from it because of that. I am not su...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
My understanding of MAPPA is that the approach concerns the three categories that I mentioned at the beginning—sex offenders, certain violent offenders and those offenders who are considered to be continuing risks to the public. As I said, there are people who have committed ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
You have put three points to me. I will pass the first two to Charlie Pound, but I will take the final point, which was about MAPPA not being designed for domestic abuse. When the Scottish Government was working to create the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Act 2023, ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
07 Jan 2026
Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I said earlier that these would be additional resources—I cannot be clear enough on that to the committee. That was a big worry in a lot of the evidence that we took, because money is very tight. We know that it is tight—that is why this is additional funding. The Scottish ...
Pam Gosal Con Committee
31 May 2022
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
On that point, Sandy, how do restaurants and bars that have single-sex toilets police them and keep bad-faith actors from accessing them?
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 21 December 2022

21 Dec 2022 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

It will absolutely affect those people. Indeed, some of my amendments talk about that, and I have mentioned the issue many times in committee and in this chamber. We must have balanced rights for everyone. I come from a minority ethnic background; I will talk about that and about letters that I have received, and I hope that the member will be eager to listen later.

I stand here today, hoping that the Parliament will support my amendments, which seek to offer women a minimal level of reassurance that the Parliament is committed to upholding their rights. The process has come down to lodging minor amendments in the hope that there will be at least some form of reassurance for women and some comfort that their rights under the Equality Act 2010 are not being completely eroded.

At stage 2, I lodged amendments that would have required Scottish ministers to publish information on the bill’s impact on single-sex spaces and services. To no one’s surprise, those amendments were voted down. Today, at stage 3, I ask the Parliament to support my amendments 61 and 123.

Amendment 61 would place a requirement on ministers to

“prepare and publish a report on the impact of this Act on self-exclusion from activities or services”

and to do so

“no later than one year after section 2 comes into force”.

I also ask for that report to include information on self-exclusion by both women and men and in different activities and services.

17:45  

Amendment 123 would place a requirement on ministers to

“prepare and publish a report on the impact of this Act on funding of single-sex services”

and to consider

“what steps, if any,”

the Scottish Government considers

“necessary to ensure appropriate funding is available to single-sex services.”

For years, the Parliament has made genuine progress in its attempts to ensure that victims feel heard, that they have a safe space and that they have a support network. However, the bill risks doing the opposite; it risks marginalising women who are already marginalised and retraumatising victims. Vulnerable women—in particular, the victims of domestic violence—may forgo seeking refuge in domestic abuse shelters in which they might encounter biological males. Amendment 61, therefore, calls for data to be collected to obtain a figure for the number of women who exclude themselves from such activities.

The issue is highlighted by the fact that single-sex victim support services are so few and far between that Beira’s Place, which opened its doors last week, is set to be the sole single-sex support service for victims of sexual violence in Scotland’s capital. That raises the question: why does it take feminists such as JK Rowling to step in and provide a solution to a problem that has been identified, while the SNP Government sits on its hands and denies that such problems exist?

On Monday, at the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, I asked Reem Alsalem, the United Nations special rapporteur, whether, given that the ring fencing of funding was outwith the scope of the bill, the next best option was to place a requirement on ministers to review the impact of the bill on funding for single-sex services. Ms Alsalem agreed that placing such a requirement on ministers would be justified.

In addition, I refer members to Ms Alsalem’s letter, in which she writes:

“In the case of Scotland, it has been difficult to determine the exact scale of self-exclusion, given that hard and comprehensive data is lacking for several compelling reasons ... General Recommendation No. 28 makes it clear that in complying with their obligations to eliminate discrimination against women under article 2”

of the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women,

“State parties should ‘provide for mechanisms that collect relevant sex-disaggregated data, enable effective monitoring, facilitate continuing evaluation and allow for the revision or supplementation of existing measures and the identification of any new measures that may be appropriate.’”

It is vital that service providers in Scotland are enabled to provide single-sex services. Reem Alsalem believes that

“funding must be ringfenced for a certain proportion”

of services

“to be single sex, balancing the needs of the different demographics without placing them in conflict”,

but I was told that ring fencing a certain proportion of single-sex and gender-based services was outwith the scope of the bill. However, Ms Alsalem also made it clear that it is not our job to question why some women want to access women-only spaces, saying:

“It is our job, as states and as organisations, to reduce the barriers to access ... That is ... what is required in taking an intersectional approach”.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 19 December 2022; c 26-7.]

I therefore propose that, at the very least, the Scottish Government monitor and review the legislation’s impact on self-exclusion and funding for single-sex services. I urge members to back my amendments 61 and 123.

I support other amendments in the group, including amendments 111, 120, 121, 72, 73, 127, 130 and 92, which seek guidance on the protection of single-sex spaces and services. I also support amendments 117, 128 and 133, which seek guidance on how GRCs impact the Equality Act 2010.

I will support amendment 112, which seeks to ensure that the bill does not affect the provisions in the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and I also support amendments 118 and 119, which require ministers to issue guidance on the disclosure of protected information related to GRCs for the purpose of occupational requirements. I also lend my support to amendments 129 and 136, which seek to ensure that interest groups, such as public authorities and women and girls, are consulted.

However, I will vote against the cabinet secretary’s amendment 54, which will require ministers to consult and provide guidance on the legislation to bodies that they deem to be promoting equality and human rights. Ultimately, it is clear from the consultation on the bill alone that many groups still feel unheard, and I do not have complete faith that the Scottish Government will consult on a fair basis.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The first item of business is continuation of stage 3 proceedings on the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members s...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I seek your guidance on the Official Report of this Parliament. “The Official Report is a written record of what is...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I thank Mr Ross for his point of order. My understanding is that proceedings had been suspended, but I will look into the matter that he has raised and I wil...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
First of all, I place on record my thanks to colleagues and, more importantly, to the staff of the Parliament, who aided and abetted us so diligently last ni...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The issue that I have with this section, which I raised at stage 2, is that it seems to me to be virtually impossible to prove fraud if, in order to get a ge...
Jamie Greene Con
I am aware of a number of other amendments on the production of documentation, which have been discussed. There is a valid point, in that the Gender Recognit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I pay tribute to the contribution that Jamie Greene is making to this process. The way in which he is carefully presenting his views and the standard of deba...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Mr Kerr, I am sorry, but I would be grateful if you could speak into the microphone, because we are finding it difficult to hear you.
Stephen Kerr Con
Yes—it is very difficult to speak to someone who is behind me. Would the fraud happen when someone seeks to obtain the certificate in order to commit a crim...
Jamie Greene Con
That is a helpful question, and the answer lies in the wording of amendment 108, which states: “an application for a gender recognition certificate ... is f...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
I listened carefully to the member’s answer to Graham Simpson. He seemed to say that there is no difference between the 2004 act and this bill in relation to...
Jamie Greene Con
I respect the member’s position on the matter. To be clear, there are people who believe that getting a gender dysphoria diagnosis is an important safeguard ...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I agree with the comments that were made by my colleague Jamie Greene. I thank the parliamentary staff who worked yesterday. I also stand with Jamie Greene ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
First, I thank Jamie Greene, who always lodges thoughtful amendments on some of the technical issues around the commission of offences. I will look at the ma...
Graham Simpson Con
Pauline McNeill raises the fundamental questions. The issue is that, if the bill passes as it is, we will have a system of self-ID. All that a person would h...
Stephen Kerr Con
In my intervention on Jamie Greene, I suggested that the only fraud that was possible would be somebody obtaining a GRC for the purposes of some nefarious ac...
Graham Simpson Con
I agree that that is a risk in the bill. That is one of the problems with the bill, but how do you prove fraud if no evidence is required to obtain one of th...
Ash Regan (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) SNP
Does the member agree that evidence suggests that the risk of getting caught committing an offence is a very effective deterrent?
Graham Simpson Con
Yes, that is correct. That would be a deterrent. Where is the risk here? There is very little risk, because of the situation that I have outlined, which is t...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I have been wrestling with that exact point since speaking to a policeman the other day who said to me that, if a transgender person walked into the toilet f...
Graham Simpson Con
That is precisely the point. That was a good point well made by Mr Whittle, as I would expect. All the amendments in the group are very well meaning and wou...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government (Shona Robison) SNP
I put on record my thanks to Parliament staff for supporting last night’s very late sitting. It was very much appreciated by members across the chamber. At ...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
What safeguards will be put in place to prevent those who fraudulently obtain a GRC from accessing women-only spaces?
Shona Robison SNP
The protections under the Equality Act 2010 that have exceptions for single-sex service spaces are there and are unchanged by the bill. Therefore, if a trans...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shona Robison SNP
Briefly.
Stephen Kerr Con
There is huge confusion about what the whole concept of “applying fraudulently” means. Will the cabinet secretary spell out for the benefit of us all what ex...
Shona Robison SNP
For example, a person of interest would be able to go to the sheriff and provide enough evidence to allow the sheriff to look into whether the person was liv...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shona Robison SNP
Not at the moment. At the end of the day, as with any other case in court, the sheriff would look at the circumstances. If it was found that the person had ...