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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee 14 December 2022

14 Dec 2022 · S6 · Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Item of business

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

McAllan, Màiri SNP Clydesdale Watch on SPTV

I wish Christine Grahame well and will speak to the substance of her amendment, because I know that she will want to catch up with what is being discussed at the meeting. Although I support the principle behind amendment 174 and understand Christine Grahame’s desire to be vigilant in avoiding a loophole whereby people who wish to continue illegal hunting will use drag hunting as a cover, I have some reservations about the amendment. First, the wording that relates to reckless conduct, to which Rachael Hamilton spoke as well, is misaligned with the rest of the bill. That goes to the heart of what we seek to avoid. Moreover, regulating the use of dogs to find and follow a non-animal-based scent, including human scents, was not included in the bill, as it does not directly—or, indeed, indirectly—involve the use of dogs to hunt a wild mammal, which is what the core purpose of the bill relates to. Unlike with trail hunting, we do not have evidence to suggest that drag hunting is being used as a cover for illegal hunting. Neither do we have evidence that wild mammals are accidentally being chased or killed during the course of drag hunting. However, members might say “yet”. That speaks to some of the other members’ contributions. I understand the concerns that, if the bill is passed as introduced, people who are intent on illegal hunting might try to use drag hunting as a cover. I agree that we cannot rule that out entirely, although we hope that it will not be the case. However, as the bill is drafted, if a person is undertaking drag hunting—or clean-boot hunting, as it is sometimes called—and allows their dog to chase or kill a wild mammal without taking reasonable steps to prevent that from happening, they will commit an offence under section 1 of the bill. Weighing all of that up, although I cannot support Christine Grahame’s amendment 174, I will continue to keep the subject—the potential risks and possible solutions—under review as we move towards stage 3. Ms Grahame and I discussed last week that we would meet before stage 3 to discuss her other amendments, and I propose to discuss this matter with her then. On amendments 237 and 238, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, section 11 creates a new offence in relation to trail hunting, while section 12 provides an exception to that. Amendment 237 seeks to remove section 11, with the effect that trail hunting would not be prohibited. As I have set out at various points during the scrutiny of the bill, trail hunting poses a significant risk to wild mammals, and I note that 70 per cent of respondents to our consultation supported a ban on it. We know that trail hunting can have significant risks for animal welfare. Dogs that have been trained to follow an animal-based scent can be diverted from a laid trail on or near to a natural trail and start chasing and killing wild mammals. That is exactly what we want to stop. A ban on trail hunting is supported by animal welfare groups including the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission and the Scottish SPCA. Our other reason for pursuing a ban is that trail hunting has emerged as a cover for illegal hunting in other countries. In that regard, I point to Lord Bonomy’s report, which says: “it is worthy of note that the way in which some mounted hunts now operate in Scotland and the practice by mounted hunts of trail hunting in England and Wales have both given rise to suspicion that organised mounted hunts have continued to hunt foxes with a pack of hounds in contravention of the legislation.” Finally, on the points that have been made about laying an animal-based scent for dogs to follow and about training, I recognise that some people might have legitimate reasons for laying such a scent—for example, to train police dogs or dogs that are used to manage deer or search for invasive species. That is why the bill includes provisions to allow those activities to continue, subject, of course, to the two-dog limit and other conditions. For all the reasons that have been stated, I cannot support the amendments.

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee 14 December 2022

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