Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 20 May 2025
20 May 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Civil Legal Aid Inquiry
Good morning, and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have received apologies from Maggie Chapman and Paul O’Kane.
Our first agenda item is to continue evidence taking on our civil legal aid inquiry. The committee will be exploring what is working and what is not working in the current civil legal aid system and what changes could be made in the shorter and longer term to address issues about access to civil legal aid.
I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I welcome the first of our two panels of witnesses this morning. Kevin Kane is the chief executive of Shared Parenting Scotland; Fiona McPhail is a lecturer in social justice at the University of Glasgow; Dr Marsha Scott is chief executive of Scottish Women’s Aid; and Sabir Zazai is chief executive of the Scottish Refugee Council. You are all very welcome.
We will move straight to questions, and I will kick off. Last week, we heard from witnesses about the general barriers to accessing civil legal assistance. I will ask each of you, in turn, the same question. What specific clients do you represent and what specific barriers do you see to their accessing civil legal aid assistance?
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have received apologies from Maggie Cha...
Kevin Kane (Shared Parenting Scotland)
We support mothers, fathers and grandparents after separation or divorce. We are seeing increasing demand on our services. Almost all those people are affect...
Fiona McPhail (University of Glasgow)
Good morning, convener and committee. Thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning. I am no longer in practice, but I have recently come from practi...
Dr Marsha Scott (Scottish Women’s Aid)
Good morning, everybody—it is good to see you all. I was looking back at my notes for previous sessions, and making notes for this session, and I realised t...
Dr Sabir Zazai OBE FRSE (Scottish Refugee Council)
Legal aid is not only a service but an important lifeline for those seeking protection in the United Kingdom and in Scotland. Refugees are navigating a very ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I note, very politely, that we are almost halfway through our session and only one question has been asked. Therefore, I must ask that we be as su...
Kevin Kane
I will keep it succinct, convener. We have been using the phrase “legal aid deserts” since the Evans review in 2018 to denote the issues with the availabilit...
Dr Scott
I will be as quick as I can. We hear from managers across rural and island communities all the time about exactly the problem that has just been highlighted....
Dr Zazai
As I have said, I am going to bring in case studies and anecdotes from people who are in touch with us. On the lack of representation, we are working with so...
The Convener
SNP
We have a supplementary from Tess White.
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Dr Scott, you have talked about the model, so I will give you the opportunity to share your views with us, initially through a rural and remote lens.
Dr Scott
It will be hard to be quick, but I will do my best. As I have said, we have known for a long time that the existing model is a problem. I have to say that t...
Tess White
Con
On the issue of data, do you have figures for the number of women who are trying to access legal aid in rural areas following domestic abuse?
Dr Scott
SLAB will have some data, and we will also have data from our groups that has been gathered over multiple years. The most up-to-date data is probably from th...
Tess White
Con
What are the figures, roughly?
Dr Scott
I do not know the total numbers. Also, do not make the mistake of thinking that those numbers represent the unmet need. It is difficult even to get people to...
Tess White
Con
Our committee can try to pull some data from somewhere. I have a final question about remote and rural areas. You touched on the thirst that is not being q...
Dr Scott
It is difficult, as you can imagine. The abuser has probably one or two tasks to manage and might have been convicted, so they have to manage the legal situa...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Thank you for the information that you have provided so far. We recently became aware of the case of a woman who was turned down not by one, n...
Dr Scott
I agree with the evidence that was given last week that there are some quick fixes. On the eligibility requirements, I will probably not use the right term, ...
Fiona McPhail
The merit test.
Dr Scott
The merit test—thank you. I knew that there was a lawyer to my left. Those are all designed to keep people out, rather than to get the folks who need access...
Pam Gosal
Con
I have one more question. You said earlier that the model of legal aid for women and children in Scotland is not fit for purpose and is not demand led. Fiona...
Dr Scott
Absolutely. I think the reference was to housing, because someone who is experiencing domestic abuse in England gets nothing. How is it demand led, and how ...
Pam Gosal
Con
At times, the partner holds all the financial records and controls the finances. Women especially may not hold all the information and may have to be means t...
Dr Scott
If she was not destitute going into the relationship, she will be by the time she comes out.
Pam Gosal
Con
Does anybody want to add anything?
Dr Zazai
The system must treat people as people and families as families that can have breakdowns when people who live together face challenges. It is important to be...
Pam Gosal
Con
I have one more question for Dr Zazai about the cultural side of things, because that issue was raised last week. You spoke about language barriers. Many wo...
Dr Zazai
There could be a platform to share learning between the legal sector—immigration and asylum lawyers—and those of us in the third sector, because that unique ...