Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 30 September 2025
30 Sep 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting in 2025, in session 6, of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. Agenda item 1 is our first evidence session on the Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill. We will hear from three panels of witnesses.
I welcome our first panel. We are joined in the room by the Rev Stephen Allison, public engagement co-ordinator at the Free Church of Scotland; Claire Benton-Evans, provincial youth co-ordinator at the Scottish Episcopal Church; Barbara Coupar, director of the Scottish Catholic Education Centre; and the Rev Stephen Miller, co-ordinator of the education and schools group at the Church of Scotland. We are joined remotely by Leah Rivka, research and publications officer at the Jewish Council of Scotland. You are all very welcome.
We will now turn to questions from members. If you would like to respond to a question or any point that is raised, please indicate that to me. Leah, if you wish to come in, please type R in the chat and the clerks will bring that to my attention.
I will kick off with the first question, which is for everyone. What is your experience of how the right to withdraw from religious observance and religious and moral education currently works in schools?
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 21st meeting in 2025, in session 6, of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. Agenda item 1 is our first ...
Claire Benton-Evans (Scottish Episcopal Church)
It is important for me to say that I am not involved directly in the work of schools, so others will be better qualified to talk about that. However, I know ...
Barbara Coupar (Scottish Catholic Education Service)
Good morning, everybody. I am a religious education teacher by trade, and I look after Roman Catholic schools on behalf of the Bishops Conference of Scotland...
Leah Rivka (Jewish Council of Scotland)
There is one Jewish school in Scotland, but the majority of Jewish pupils attend non-Jewish schools—either non-denominational schools or other faith schools—...
The Rev Stephen Allison (The Free Church of Scotland)
Good morning. It is great to be with the committee. As well as having a central role with the Free Church of Scotland, I am a minister and am involved in del...
The Rev Stephen Miller (Church of Scotland)
Thank you for the opportunity to contribute. Although I am wearing a dog collar, I have been an ordained minister for only one year. I spent 40 years in scho...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you all very much. We will move on to questions from Paul McLennan.
Paul McLennan (East Lothian) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. I want to ask about some of the specifics. My question is kind of in three parts. The bill requires a school to info...
Claire Benton-Evans
I think that young people can choose what they believe. Everyone in this room has the right to choose their religion, or none, and I am here to support that ...
Barbara Coupar
I find it interesting that we are having this evidence session at this committee and not at the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I think that ...
The Rev Stephen Allison
We are in complete agreement with 90 per cent of the process that is set out in the bill—talking to children about this, being informed of decisions, having ...
Paul McLennan
SNP
On your point about age and maturity, every child will be different when it comes to how mature they are for their age, but is there some cut-off point—say, ...
The Rev Stephen Allison
One of the concerns that we have with the legislation at the moment is the assumption that the views of the child, no matter what age they are, should trump ...
Claire Benton-Evans
I want to make a point about children expressing their views on religious observance. In the churches with which I work, there is a really rich understanding...
Paul McLennan
SNP
Does anyone else want to come in?
The Rev Stephen Miller
Rather than waste time, I will just say that I am in general agreement with my colleagues on the matter. Perhaps I can ground this a wee bit by pointing out ...
Paul McLennan
SNP
It is good to hear your comments. Leah Rivka, is there anything that you want to add?
Leah Rivka
Yes, please. We are generally supportive of listening to pupils and hearing their views, but the way in which the bill proposes to enact that gives us a lot ...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning to our witnesses. Thank you for all the information that you have provided so far. My question is about uniformity. Last year, I was speaking t...
The Rev Stephen Allison
One of the challenges of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education is that there is no statutory right to withdraw, which there is for RO and RME...
Pam Gosal
Con
Sorry, I should say that when I talked about sexual education, I was not talking about the usual sexual education that schools provide under statute; I was t...
The Rev Stephen Allison
I suppose that that is covered in the RSHP education. In the Free Church, we would have parents who would want to withdraw from that, but if it is included i...
The Convener
SNP
Leah Rivka has indicated that she would like to come in as well.
Leah Rivka
We have found, as you are suggesting, Ms Gosal, a great disparity between schools, which can be very problematic, especially in very small rural schools, whe...
The Rev Stephen Miller
I will say three quick things. First, this is very much a situation for the local authority to deal with using the relevant process. Secondly, it is a good e...
Claire Benton-Evans
If we are talking about clarity and coherence, there is a bigger point that I would like to make, which is that religious observance and religious and moral ...
Barbara Coupar
As you said, Ms Gosal, your question relates to consistency. Even now, there are concerns about consistency within the system, particularly on the part of te...
Leah Rivka
I want to pick up on what was said earlier. We strongly agree that there is a difference between religious observance and religious and moral education, but ...
The Convener
SNP
Before I bring in Maggie Chapman, Rhoda Grant would like to ask a supplementary question.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I would like to ask a couple of questions, because things have occurred to me as I have been listening to people’s answers. Given what people are saying abo...