Chamber
Plenary, 02 Sep 2009
02 Sep 2009 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I had not intended to participate in the debate, but I would like to make a point that I hope the minister will be able to address at the end. My point is a bit long to make as an intervention.
As expressed today by members, the bill's aims are laudable and I am sure that most members will support it. I am interested in the detail on consultation, and in particular on transport. An example from my constituency will set that in context.
In Coatbridge, two high schools were closed. There were good reasons for that, including problems with the fabric of the schools, the fact that new schools were to be built, and falling school rolls. However, among the concerns of parents was that a denominational school was being closed and replaced by the non-denominational Coatbridge high school. Children from that area whose parents wanted them to go to a denominational school had to travel about 2 miles to do so—previously that had not been the case. Conversely, a non-denominational school was closed and replaced by a denominational one.
Unfortunately, the local authority's transport policy—although more generous than the national policy—stayed the same, so the children were unable to get transport to, for example, the new denominational school. The route to the school, which involved crossing a busy road, was quite unsafe. That caused some concern and took away part of the glow of the new buildings. More than that, it made some parents feel that they now had to send their children to a non-denominational school when they would have preferred them to have denominational education—the Catholic education that was on offer before. The same was true the other way round: some parents were sending their children to the nearest, Catholic school rather than having them travel across the town.
I wrote to the local council about the matter, asking whether, instead of lines simply being drawn on maps, needs could not be taken more into account in urban settings. I refer here to some of the issues that my colleague George Foulkes raised. Could such issues be considered at stage 2—if they are not already included under the bill—or are they outwith the terms of the bill? If parents agree to a school closure for a good reason but have deep concerns about matters such as travel, perhaps that could come under a consultation, or even a call-in.
As expressed today by members, the bill's aims are laudable and I am sure that most members will support it. I am interested in the detail on consultation, and in particular on transport. An example from my constituency will set that in context.
In Coatbridge, two high schools were closed. There were good reasons for that, including problems with the fabric of the schools, the fact that new schools were to be built, and falling school rolls. However, among the concerns of parents was that a denominational school was being closed and replaced by the non-denominational Coatbridge high school. Children from that area whose parents wanted them to go to a denominational school had to travel about 2 miles to do so—previously that had not been the case. Conversely, a non-denominational school was closed and replaced by a denominational one.
Unfortunately, the local authority's transport policy—although more generous than the national policy—stayed the same, so the children were unable to get transport to, for example, the new denominational school. The route to the school, which involved crossing a busy road, was quite unsafe. That caused some concern and took away part of the glow of the new buildings. More than that, it made some parents feel that they now had to send their children to a non-denominational school when they would have preferred them to have denominational education—the Catholic education that was on offer before. The same was true the other way round: some parents were sending their children to the nearest, Catholic school rather than having them travel across the town.
I wrote to the local council about the matter, asking whether, instead of lines simply being drawn on maps, needs could not be taken more into account in urban settings. I refer here to some of the issues that my colleague George Foulkes raised. Could such issues be considered at stage 2—if they are not already included under the bill—or are they outwith the terms of the bill? If parents agree to a school closure for a good reason but have deep concerns about matters such as travel, perhaps that could come under a consultation, or even a call-in.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-4734, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on stage 1 of the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill.I am delighte...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Fiona Hyslop):
SNP
I express my gratitude to Karen Whitefield and the other members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their careful, thorough and co...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary is dealing with her manifesto commitments in relation to rural schools. Can she confirm that there was also a clear manifesto commitmen...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Yes, I acknowledge that commitment. I am delighted that we now have record lows in class sizes and record lows in pupil teacher ratios. Indeed, on my visits ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
Is the cabinet secretary willing to urge local authorities that are undertaking school closure exercises, such as the City of Edinburgh Council, to follow th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
As the member will understand, the consultation to which he referred is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council. He will note on page 19 of the bill and i...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
In the event that a consultation does not meet the best practice requirements that the cabinet secretary has outlined, will parents have recourse to somebody...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Indeed, yes. I refer the member to the bill. One proposal is for ministerial call-in: if a consultation process is not carried out properly, parents can refe...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Does the minister accept that those of us who have some concerns about that in no way want to diminish the safeguards in the bill for rural schools? Extendin...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
It is important to recognise the strength of the improvements on consultation for all schools, including semi-rural schools with transport issues. The defini...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee in the stage 1 debate on the Schools (Consultation) (S...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
We came back from the recess to the fall-out from the al-Megrahi debacle and the decision to postpone the introduction of the children's hearings bill, and t...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Oh, no!
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I was extending the hand of friendship, Mr Foulkes.A number of issues with the bill remain, but I hope that with a little movement from the cabinet secretary...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
This is an important point. The committee convener stated that rural schools require special consideration. Does Ken Macintosh agree with that? If so, what s...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
The committee convener made that point but then went on to say that the committee wants the Government to keep the three criteria under active consideration....
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Yes.
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
To clarify, there was not consensus on the consultation, but quite a polarised response. However, the compromise and new creative solution of ministerial cal...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I think that there is still some anxiety about whether ministers should have a call-in at all, but I recognise that that is an improvement on the current pro...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Murdo Fraser, who is absent from the debate because his wife Emma has just given birth to their second child, Lucy Eliz...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
The Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity to speak about the bill.The issue is important. As members may be aware, the City of Edinburgh Council is consu...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
That is an important part of the debate. Even under the current system, the transport issues that are associated with school closures are subject to scrutiny...
Margaret Smith:
LD
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but I think that there is a potential lack of clarity in the way in which those three criteria are set out...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased to speak in this afternoon's debate as we consider the general principles of the bill. However, as I am a Glasgow MSP, members would expect me t...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Does Mr Doris believe, given the nature of his remarks, that rural and urban school closures should be treated identically, or does he think that different c...
Bob Doris:
SNP
Given that the SNP's manifesto commitment—which I suspect members are only too keen to see us fulfil—specifically mentioned rural schools, it is only right t...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The member made an interesting argument about calling it an educational analysis statement as opposed to an educational benefits statement. That cuts to the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Mr Doris, you should keep an eye on the time.
Bob Doris:
SNP
Of course. I thank the cabinet secretary for her helpful clarification.I conclude by saying that I am delighted with the core change to allow call-in by the ...