Chamber
Plenary, 02 Sep 2009
02 Sep 2009 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Given that the SNP's manifesto commitment—which I suspect members are only too keen to see us fulfil—specifically mentioned rural schools, it is only right that we also examine that particular issue.
From the Glasgow experience, it is clear that communities feel that they are taken for a ride and that councils are merely going through the motions. Communities can respect decisions with which they disagree, but only if they feel that they have themselves been respected. I ask the minister to consider whether, as part of the bill, the Government would be open to making provisions for pre-consultation guidelines.
Another aspect of the bill concerns the involvement of HMIE, which I strongly endorse. I note that HMIE will not be expected to attend consultation meetings, but it is important that it attend at least some. I am open minded about whether that means that it should attend meetings at a fixed amount of schools within any school closure programme, or whether it should have more of a roving role to evaluate the effectiveness of such meetings. It is clear from the Glasgow experience that such meetings were poorly run and organised, and did not allow parents a genuine opportunity to express their views or to feel that they had been listened to.
I will give an example. If a parent raises fears about possible territorialism issues that might arise if their child's school should close, they would expect to be listened to, as opposed to being told on the night that there are well-established criteria to eliminate such problems. That should also be the case for matters such as safe walking routes to school or child care facilities—parents were told not to worry about such matters, and their questions were answered, on the very same evening as the public consultation meeting. Parents were not looking for slick presentations at consultation meetings from council officials with pre-rehearsed answers to justify all aspects of closure; they simply wanted to feel that they were being listened to. In Glasgow, 96 per cent of 8,000 respondents to the consultation among parents and communities objected to closure plans because they felt that they had been completely ignored.
There is clearly a need for some form of quality control within that aspect of any consultation process. It has to be monitored somehow, which may be a role for HMIE. If there is no independent assessment of the quality of consultations, many parents will feel that local authorities are not listening to them or conducting the process openly and transparently. I urge that consideration be given to how we monitor the quality of such consultation meetings, and to whether HMIE could be the body to do that job, although I am open to suggestions on other bodies.
There is much to be welcomed in the bill; I specifically welcome the extension of the list of consultees and I am delighted that teaching staff may now be allowed to have their say during a consultation. In Glasgow, I have heard some stories about quiet words being had with staff to remind them that the council is their employer and that it would be best if they said nothing. The teaching union Educational Institute of Scotland was rather muted about the Glasgow proposals, and I know that individual teachers would have liked the protection and the right to speak their minds in public.
I welcome the educational benefits statement that will be part of the process for councils, although some guidance may be needed on it. It should be retitled as something along the lines of educational analysis statement, as to call it an educational benefits statement could be a self-fulfilling prophecy and lead to an automatic assumption that the altered provision will be of benefit, which is not necessarily the case.
Councils need to move to a culture in which they will alter or throw out their initial proposals because their consultation exercise has worked and they are responsible. A willingness to do so is a sign of strength in councils.
From the Glasgow experience, it is clear that communities feel that they are taken for a ride and that councils are merely going through the motions. Communities can respect decisions with which they disagree, but only if they feel that they have themselves been respected. I ask the minister to consider whether, as part of the bill, the Government would be open to making provisions for pre-consultation guidelines.
Another aspect of the bill concerns the involvement of HMIE, which I strongly endorse. I note that HMIE will not be expected to attend consultation meetings, but it is important that it attend at least some. I am open minded about whether that means that it should attend meetings at a fixed amount of schools within any school closure programme, or whether it should have more of a roving role to evaluate the effectiveness of such meetings. It is clear from the Glasgow experience that such meetings were poorly run and organised, and did not allow parents a genuine opportunity to express their views or to feel that they had been listened to.
I will give an example. If a parent raises fears about possible territorialism issues that might arise if their child's school should close, they would expect to be listened to, as opposed to being told on the night that there are well-established criteria to eliminate such problems. That should also be the case for matters such as safe walking routes to school or child care facilities—parents were told not to worry about such matters, and their questions were answered, on the very same evening as the public consultation meeting. Parents were not looking for slick presentations at consultation meetings from council officials with pre-rehearsed answers to justify all aspects of closure; they simply wanted to feel that they were being listened to. In Glasgow, 96 per cent of 8,000 respondents to the consultation among parents and communities objected to closure plans because they felt that they had been completely ignored.
There is clearly a need for some form of quality control within that aspect of any consultation process. It has to be monitored somehow, which may be a role for HMIE. If there is no independent assessment of the quality of consultations, many parents will feel that local authorities are not listening to them or conducting the process openly and transparently. I urge that consideration be given to how we monitor the quality of such consultation meetings, and to whether HMIE could be the body to do that job, although I am open to suggestions on other bodies.
There is much to be welcomed in the bill; I specifically welcome the extension of the list of consultees and I am delighted that teaching staff may now be allowed to have their say during a consultation. In Glasgow, I have heard some stories about quiet words being had with staff to remind them that the council is their employer and that it would be best if they said nothing. The teaching union Educational Institute of Scotland was rather muted about the Glasgow proposals, and I know that individual teachers would have liked the protection and the right to speak their minds in public.
I welcome the educational benefits statement that will be part of the process for councils, although some guidance may be needed on it. It should be retitled as something along the lines of educational analysis statement, as to call it an educational benefits statement could be a self-fulfilling prophecy and lead to an automatic assumption that the altered provision will be of benefit, which is not necessarily the case.
Councils need to move to a culture in which they will alter or throw out their initial proposals because their consultation exercise has worked and they are responsible. A willingness to do so is a sign of strength in councils.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-4734, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on stage 1 of the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill.I am delighte...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Fiona Hyslop):
SNP
I express my gratitude to Karen Whitefield and the other members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their careful, thorough and co...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary is dealing with her manifesto commitments in relation to rural schools. Can she confirm that there was also a clear manifesto commitmen...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Yes, I acknowledge that commitment. I am delighted that we now have record lows in class sizes and record lows in pupil teacher ratios. Indeed, on my visits ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
Is the cabinet secretary willing to urge local authorities that are undertaking school closure exercises, such as the City of Edinburgh Council, to follow th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
As the member will understand, the consultation to which he referred is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council. He will note on page 19 of the bill and i...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
In the event that a consultation does not meet the best practice requirements that the cabinet secretary has outlined, will parents have recourse to somebody...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Indeed, yes. I refer the member to the bill. One proposal is for ministerial call-in: if a consultation process is not carried out properly, parents can refe...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Does the minister accept that those of us who have some concerns about that in no way want to diminish the safeguards in the bill for rural schools? Extendin...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
It is important to recognise the strength of the improvements on consultation for all schools, including semi-rural schools with transport issues. The defini...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee in the stage 1 debate on the Schools (Consultation) (S...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
We came back from the recess to the fall-out from the al-Megrahi debacle and the decision to postpone the introduction of the children's hearings bill, and t...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Oh, no!
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I was extending the hand of friendship, Mr Foulkes.A number of issues with the bill remain, but I hope that with a little movement from the cabinet secretary...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
This is an important point. The committee convener stated that rural schools require special consideration. Does Ken Macintosh agree with that? If so, what s...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
The committee convener made that point but then went on to say that the committee wants the Government to keep the three criteria under active consideration....
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Yes.
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
To clarify, there was not consensus on the consultation, but quite a polarised response. However, the compromise and new creative solution of ministerial cal...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
I think that there is still some anxiety about whether ministers should have a call-in at all, but I recognise that that is an improvement on the current pro...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Murdo Fraser, who is absent from the debate because his wife Emma has just given birth to their second child, Lucy Eliz...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
The Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity to speak about the bill.The issue is important. As members may be aware, the City of Edinburgh Council is consu...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
That is an important part of the debate. Even under the current system, the transport issues that are associated with school closures are subject to scrutiny...
Margaret Smith:
LD
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but I think that there is a potential lack of clarity in the way in which those three criteria are set out...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased to speak in this afternoon's debate as we consider the general principles of the bill. However, as I am a Glasgow MSP, members would expect me t...
Ken Macintosh:
Lab
Does Mr Doris believe, given the nature of his remarks, that rural and urban school closures should be treated identically, or does he think that different c...
Bob Doris:
SNP
Given that the SNP's manifesto commitment—which I suspect members are only too keen to see us fulfil—specifically mentioned rural schools, it is only right t...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The member made an interesting argument about calling it an educational analysis statement as opposed to an educational benefits statement. That cuts to the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Mr Doris, you should keep an eye on the time.
Bob Doris:
SNP
Of course. I thank the cabinet secretary for her helpful clarification.I conclude by saying that I am delighted with the core change to allow call-in by the ...