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Chamber

Plenary, 02 Sep 2009

02 Sep 2009 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Indeed, yes. I refer the member to the bill. One proposal is for ministerial call-in: if a consultation process is not carried out properly, parents can refer the decision to ministerial call-in.

As I have just outlined to Margo MacDonald, in order to support such improvement the bill removes the automatic referral of certain council decisions to ministers—I refer to referrals that can be made on the rather arbitrary grounds of occupancy or distance. The responses to the Government consultation showed clear consensus on the need for change, but views were polarised on what should replace referrals. Further consultation with all those with an interest helped us to identify an acceptable way forward: replacing ministerial referrals with a new power for ministers to call in certain decisions.

The bill restricts call-in to closure decisions and only when there appear to be serious flaws in the consultation or decision-making processes. The intention is to enable local decisions to be made by those who are locally accountable and locally elected while providing a balanced and consistent check on the most contentious decisions, which are—as we all know—closures.

The Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee deliberated carefully on the evidence that was submitted to it. I thank its members for their helpful and thoughtful stage 1 report. I am pleased that the committee expressed broad support for the aims of the bill and that it recognised the need for decision-making processes to be as widely understood and—importantly—as transparent as possible. That is a key aim of the bill.

Let me turn to the report's conclusions and recommendations. The committee supports our intention to introduce statutory guidance on the contents of the educational benefits statement and has recommended that the guidance is extended to cover the whole proposal paper. I recognise the value of that suggestion. In extending the guidance, we will address the committee recommendation to encourage councils to include other factors when relevant, such as the condition of a building. We will also consider how best to provide guidance to councils on how the cost implications of proposals should be illustrated in a proposal paper in a way that is both proportionate and easily understood.

The committee also suggests that we give further thought to the practical issue of maximising engagement with consultees, and it supports the suggestion that I made in my evidence that we engage with the children's commissioner on consultation with pupils. I am happy to give an undertaking that we will take that forward and reflect it in our guidance.

The committee asks the Government to note concerns in evidence about notification of the consultations, particularly the use of pupil post. I have noted those concerns and will consider how to address that point in guidance. Some wry smiles there—as a mother of three, I have some sympathy with that issue.

Finally, the committee asks the Government to consider extending the time that councils have to notify it of closure decisions. I am willing to do so.

I will respond in my closing remarks to the more contentious points raised in the report and in the course of the debate, but at this point I want to address the fundamental issue of rural schools. I note the committee's recommendation that the Scottish Government should give further consideration to extending to all schools the three additional rural factors set out in the bill. There are two important aspects to that: what we propose for rural school closure consultations—and why—and what we propose for all school consultations.

It is important to recognise the different experiences of our rural communities. The closure of a rural school can mean that children have to travel many miles to an alternative school—in particularly remote rural areas, that can often mean travelling to another village. In turn, that can impact adversely on the viability of whole communities, as families with children are drawn to villages with schools.

As I said in my evidence to the committee, at the launch of the bill in Dalwhinnie I was struck by the fact that nearly all of the pupils' parents worked on local estates. The gamekeepers there told me that, without the school, those estates would struggle to recruit. I know that such a situation is replicated throughout many parts of rural Scotland—there are many fragile rural areas in Scotland where the continued existence of the village school is closely intertwined with the continued viability of the local economy.

The Government recognises the importance of preserving and promoting a rural way of life. If the bill's rural provisions were to be extended to all schools, that would be to disregard the fragility of many rural communities and the proportionately greater impact that rural school closures can have on job opportunities, the local economy and the community.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson): NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-4734, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on stage 1 of the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Bill.I am delighte...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Fiona Hyslop): SNP
I express my gratitude to Karen Whitefield and the other members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their careful, thorough and co...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab): Lab
The cabinet secretary is dealing with her manifesto commitments in relation to rural schools. Can she confirm that there was also a clear manifesto commitmen...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
Yes, I acknowledge that commitment. I am delighted that we now have record lows in class sizes and record lows in pupil teacher ratios. Indeed, on my visits ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): Lab
Is the cabinet secretary willing to urge local authorities that are undertaking school closure exercises, such as the City of Edinburgh Council, to follow th...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
As the member will understand, the consultation to which he referred is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council. He will note on page 19 of the bill and i...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind): Ind
In the event that a consultation does not meet the best practice requirements that the cabinet secretary has outlined, will parents have recourse to somebody...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
Indeed, yes. I refer the member to the bill. One proposal is for ministerial call-in: if a consultation process is not carried out properly, parents can refe...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
Does the minister accept that those of us who have some concerns about that in no way want to diminish the safeguards in the bill for rural schools? Extendin...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
It is important to recognise the strength of the improvements on consultation for all schools, including semi-rural schools with transport issues. The defini...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee in the stage 1 debate on the Schools (Consultation) (S...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): Lab
We came back from the recess to the fall-out from the al-Megrahi debacle and the decision to postpone the introduction of the children's hearings bill, and t...
George Foulkes: Lab
Oh, no!
Ken Macintosh: Lab
I was extending the hand of friendship, Mr Foulkes.A number of issues with the bill remain, but I hope that with a little movement from the cabinet secretary...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
This is an important point. The committee convener stated that rural schools require special consideration. Does Ken Macintosh agree with that? If so, what s...
Ken Macintosh: Lab
The committee convener made that point but then went on to say that the committee wants the Government to keep the three criteria under active consideration....
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
Will the member give way?
Ken Macintosh: Lab
Yes.
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
To clarify, there was not consensus on the consultation, but quite a polarised response. However, the compromise and new creative solution of ministerial cal...
Ken Macintosh: Lab
I think that there is still some anxiety about whether ministers should have a call-in at all, but I recognise that that is an improvement on the current pro...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Murdo Fraser, who is absent from the debate because his wife Emma has just given birth to their second child, Lucy Eliz...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
The Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity to speak about the bill.The issue is important. As members may be aware, the City of Edinburgh Council is consu...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
That is an important part of the debate. Even under the current system, the transport issues that are associated with school closures are subject to scrutiny...
Margaret Smith: LD
I understand what the cabinet secretary is saying, but I think that there is a potential lack of clarity in the way in which those three criteria are set out...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I am pleased to speak in this afternoon's debate as we consider the general principles of the bill. However, as I am a Glasgow MSP, members would expect me t...
Ken Macintosh: Lab
Does Mr Doris believe, given the nature of his remarks, that rural and urban school closures should be treated identically, or does he think that different c...
Bob Doris: SNP
Given that the SNP's manifesto commitment—which I suspect members are only too keen to see us fulfil—specifically mentioned rural schools, it is only right t...
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
The member made an interesting argument about calling it an educational analysis statement as opposed to an educational benefits statement. That cuts to the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Mr Doris, you should keep an eye on the time.
Bob Doris: SNP
Of course. I thank the cabinet secretary for her helpful clarification.I conclude by saying that I am delighted with the core change to allow call-in by the ...