Chamber
Plenary, 22 Apr 2009
22 Apr 2009 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
High-speed Rail Services
I thank the convener of the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee, fellow committee members and the committee clerks for their work on the inquiry.
In the 19th century, Daniel Burnham, the architect of modern Chicago, said:
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will not die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistence."
We should take that approach to high-speed rail. It is time to act and make a big plan. What better way for the UK Government to signal confidence in the country than to embark on a major infrastructure project to unite the whole UK?
High-speed rail promises economic development benefits through opening up new markets, reducing travelling time and incidentally harnessing travelling time as useful working time. It promises rail capacity improvements on new and existing lines, and would of course have significant environmental benefits. A high-speed line connecting London to Edinburgh and Glasgow, with journey times of around three hours, and with good onward connections into our existing rail network, would inspire confidence, create jobs and provide a viable alternative to domestic and European air travel. We have witnessed the benefits of high speed 1; let us be ambitious about high speed 2.
I would like to turn some of the current thinking on its head. As the Scottish Chambers of Commerce said:
"It is only when greater distances are travelled that the speed element truly gives benefit. It makes a very large difference to lop two hours off journey time from Edinburgh or Glasgow to London (85% travelling by air currently) compared to (say) Newcastle (under 60% using air) which already has that two hour advantage. By the time we regard Birmingham to London the time savings are minimal."
How, then, can it be that while all parties undoubtedly are interested in high-speed rail, some parties plan to treat Scotland as an afterthought at a later date? I believe that any high-speed blueprint must be comprehensive and plan for Anglo-Scottish links from the outset, so that they are properly integrated.
Until recently, as has been said, Westminster was lukewarm about the benefits of high-speed rail, but the agenda has moved on a little, although I believe that that change was driven more by the need to soften the blow of a third runway at Heathrow than by a genuine commitment to a more sustainable transport pattern. Lord Adonis, despite seeming to have a genuine interest in rail, has let Scotland down by instructing High Speed Two to concentrate on a new line from London to the west midlands. However, perhaps his recent rail odyssey around Britain will have encouraged him to think again—I hope so. I know that we will all press the case with him tomorrow.
The committee report makes a number of recommendations: we should aim for a three-hour, capital-to-capital journey time; any new line must serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow in order to maximise the benefits for Scotland; and the termini must be in city centres, which will be a challenge, but we must overcome it.
The majority of the evidence that we heard suggested that high-speed rail should use conventional rail technology rather than maglev. I agree, because maglev is a distraction. Conventional rail is more flexible and will allow us to maximise connections by using existing rail where necessary.
It is worth emphasising that the development of a new link to London must go hand in hand with improvements to our regional rail networks. As someone from the north-east, I suggest that a high-speed link from London to the central belt will be of little use to businesses in Aberdeen and Inverness if the connecting journey takes just as long. All of Scotland must benefit from the high-speed link—I welcome the minister's comments on that—otherwise we will relegate our northern towns and cities to economic marginalisation.
The SNP manifesto pledged that the Scottish Government would
"match the best on offer elsewhere in Europe".
However, when questioned about his commitment to high-speed rail, the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change recently said that the Scottish and Westminster Governments
"are starting to engage in parallel."—[Official Report, Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee, 16 December 2008; c 1206.]
As the minister knows, parallel lines do not meet.
The minister's enthusiasm for rail is well known, but we need him to roll up his sleeves. As we say in the north-east, we need him to get yokit on the issue. Rivalries with Westminster need to be set aside. Real and sustained dialogue is required if Scotland is not to be shunted into a siding for many years. Edinburgh and Glasgow must be included in the blueprint from the outset. I look for a pledge on that from the Scottish and UK Governments.
When the American vice president last week announced plans to invest in high-speed rail, he said:
"This is a giant environmental down payment."
Can Britain match that? I believe that we must.
In the 19th century, Daniel Burnham, the architect of modern Chicago, said:
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will not die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistence."
We should take that approach to high-speed rail. It is time to act and make a big plan. What better way for the UK Government to signal confidence in the country than to embark on a major infrastructure project to unite the whole UK?
High-speed rail promises economic development benefits through opening up new markets, reducing travelling time and incidentally harnessing travelling time as useful working time. It promises rail capacity improvements on new and existing lines, and would of course have significant environmental benefits. A high-speed line connecting London to Edinburgh and Glasgow, with journey times of around three hours, and with good onward connections into our existing rail network, would inspire confidence, create jobs and provide a viable alternative to domestic and European air travel. We have witnessed the benefits of high speed 1; let us be ambitious about high speed 2.
I would like to turn some of the current thinking on its head. As the Scottish Chambers of Commerce said:
"It is only when greater distances are travelled that the speed element truly gives benefit. It makes a very large difference to lop two hours off journey time from Edinburgh or Glasgow to London (85% travelling by air currently) compared to (say) Newcastle (under 60% using air) which already has that two hour advantage. By the time we regard Birmingham to London the time savings are minimal."
How, then, can it be that while all parties undoubtedly are interested in high-speed rail, some parties plan to treat Scotland as an afterthought at a later date? I believe that any high-speed blueprint must be comprehensive and plan for Anglo-Scottish links from the outset, so that they are properly integrated.
Until recently, as has been said, Westminster was lukewarm about the benefits of high-speed rail, but the agenda has moved on a little, although I believe that that change was driven more by the need to soften the blow of a third runway at Heathrow than by a genuine commitment to a more sustainable transport pattern. Lord Adonis, despite seeming to have a genuine interest in rail, has let Scotland down by instructing High Speed Two to concentrate on a new line from London to the west midlands. However, perhaps his recent rail odyssey around Britain will have encouraged him to think again—I hope so. I know that we will all press the case with him tomorrow.
The committee report makes a number of recommendations: we should aim for a three-hour, capital-to-capital journey time; any new line must serve both Edinburgh and Glasgow in order to maximise the benefits for Scotland; and the termini must be in city centres, which will be a challenge, but we must overcome it.
The majority of the evidence that we heard suggested that high-speed rail should use conventional rail technology rather than maglev. I agree, because maglev is a distraction. Conventional rail is more flexible and will allow us to maximise connections by using existing rail where necessary.
It is worth emphasising that the development of a new link to London must go hand in hand with improvements to our regional rail networks. As someone from the north-east, I suggest that a high-speed link from London to the central belt will be of little use to businesses in Aberdeen and Inverness if the connecting journey takes just as long. All of Scotland must benefit from the high-speed link—I welcome the minister's comments on that—otherwise we will relegate our northern towns and cities to economic marginalisation.
The SNP manifesto pledged that the Scottish Government would
"match the best on offer elsewhere in Europe".
However, when questioned about his commitment to high-speed rail, the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change recently said that the Scottish and Westminster Governments
"are starting to engage in parallel."—[Official Report, Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee, 16 December 2008; c 1206.]
As the minister knows, parallel lines do not meet.
The minister's enthusiasm for rail is well known, but we need him to roll up his sleeves. As we say in the north-east, we need him to get yokit on the issue. Rivalries with Westminster need to be set aside. Real and sustained dialogue is required if Scotland is not to be shunted into a siding for many years. Edinburgh and Glasgow must be included in the blueprint from the outset. I look for a pledge on that from the Scottish and UK Governments.
When the American vice president last week announced plans to invest in high-speed rail, he said:
"This is a giant environmental down payment."
Can Britain match that? I believe that we must.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-3883, in the name of Patrick Harvie, on behalf of the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Commit...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
In speaking to the motion and committee report, I begin, as is traditional, by thanking my committee colleagues who contributed to our work, the various witn...
The Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change (Stewart Stevenson):
SNP
I thank Patrick Harvie for securing the debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to present my thoughts on the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change ...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
Like Patrick Harvie, I congratulate my fellow committee members and the committee clerks on the production of an excellent report. As Patrick Harvie and Stew...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
I do not disagree with anything that Des McNulty has said, but does he agree that we could do a great deal with the existing system? For example, we could si...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I ask Mr McNulty to watch the clock.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I agree with Patrick Harvie's point, which is particularly salient in light of today's announcement of fare increases between London and Edinburgh. Environme...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I am afraid that the member must conclude.
Des McNulty:
Lab
In that case, I will do so.
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I begin by saying how much I enjoyed taking part in the inquiry. In some committee inquiries, the usual suspects come forward and can be rather on the weary ...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
I am encouraged by Mr Johnstone's comments. Will he confirm whether it is now the policy of the UK Conservative party to support a high-speed link up to Scot...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
I can confirm that. The announcement that was made at the time of the Conservative party conference last year concerned proposals to take the line north to L...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD):
LD
I thank the convener of the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee, fellow committee members and the committee clerks for their work on the i...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We move to the open debate.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the clerks for bringing together an excellent report and for keeping us on the rails.In debating high-speed rail, we need to take into account how th...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
I, too, welcome the debate. I congratulate Patrick Harvie and his committee not just on an excellent report but on—rightly and not before time—moving high-sp...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
Does the member agree that it would be extremely difficult to carry out that project if Scotland and England were two separate countries? Does he agree that ...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Absolutely. Alex Johnstone and I are again at one on the issue. Of course, he is absolutely right. I found the minister's use of the phrase "neighbouring Adm...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
Could George Foulkes confirm that those are separate countries that have managed to get over the issue of providing high-speed rail across borders?
George Foulkes:
Lab
But those countries have separate companies—France has a different railway company from Spain, for example. However, Patrick Harvie makes a good point, which...
Shirley-Anne Somerville (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
The evidence that was presented during its inquiry has left the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee in no doubt about the compelling case ...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Geography.
Shirley-Anne Somerville:
SNP
Yes, geography is a factor, but we are talking about principles and whether the Labour Government in London is interested in the principle of a high-speed ra...
Gavin Brown (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Given Shirley-Anne Somerville's enthusiasm for high-speed rail, does she think that it should have been in the strategic transport projects review?
Shirley-Anne Somerville:
SNP
There is no reason why it cannot be in future strategic transport project reviews, and it has been discussed and included within the draft national planning ...
Des McNulty:
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Shirley-Anne Somerville:
SNP
I am still dealing with the previous intervention.The draft national planning framework covers some of the strategic planning issues that are going through. ...
Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab):
Lab
The report of the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee is indeed very welcome but, of course, it does not stand alone among the recommendat...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the committee for its encouraging report. I am also pleased with the atmosphere of general agreement during the debate this afternoon. I declare an i...
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab):
Lab
The case for high-speed rail and high-speed ground transport is unanswerable, and I warmly congratulate the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Comm...