Chamber
Plenary, 09 Oct 2008
09 Oct 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
<br />Secure Accommodation
The secure units are considerably aware of the need to treat separately youngsters who are in secure units for different reasons. When I visited the new, ultra-secure unit at Kibble this week, I saw that youngsters were kept in separate wings: those who had been sexually aggressive were dealt with in one area; those who were there on welfare grounds were held in another; and those who were remanded or convicted were held in another. That may not be the practice in every secure unit, but I hope that those who manage the secure estate are extremely aware of that practice.
Bill Aitken's first, and perhaps main, question was whether we can guarantee that every child who needs a place will have one. Plainly, there has been investment in the secure estate of around £20 million, much of which was put in by our predecessors; we have put in around £3 million. It does not really matter who spends the money, as we all agree that it should be spent. The number of places in secure units is being brought up to 124. That capacity will be reached as St Mary's capacity increases—St Mary's is being reopened in a phased fashion and has not yet reached its full capacity. I believe that it will do so by the end of this month. Its present capacity is 15, which will increase to 24. When that happens, we will reach the figure of 124.
The main problem, which SOFI is grappling with in a focused way, is that most of the secure units require to be operating at or near full capacity to break even. In other words, unless they are full or nearly full, they will sustain a revenue loss. That creates an extremely difficult challenge for them, to which I wanted to alert Parliament formally. That is why we want any closure not to be driven by financial considerations but to arise in a planned way, and why SOFI has been charged to do such work, which we will bring back to Parliament for discussion in due course.
The problems are very real. Given that the average cost per week per child is £4,500, we are talking about a very large sum of money to look after a group whose members include some of the most challenged and vulnerable children in Scotland, as well as children who have committed crimes and who present a real safety risk to the public.
I am not in the business of being a guarantor. I am a Government minister; I am not undertaking the somewhat fixed and absolute role of a guarantor. By working together across parties with everyone involved, we can at least reach the best solution so that a substantial number of secure places will continue to be available in Scotland, which I hope will be adequate for the purpose—although, as Bill Aitken will understand, it is a demand-led service.
Bill Aitken's first, and perhaps main, question was whether we can guarantee that every child who needs a place will have one. Plainly, there has been investment in the secure estate of around £20 million, much of which was put in by our predecessors; we have put in around £3 million. It does not really matter who spends the money, as we all agree that it should be spent. The number of places in secure units is being brought up to 124. That capacity will be reached as St Mary's capacity increases—St Mary's is being reopened in a phased fashion and has not yet reached its full capacity. I believe that it will do so by the end of this month. Its present capacity is 15, which will increase to 24. When that happens, we will reach the figure of 124.
The main problem, which SOFI is grappling with in a focused way, is that most of the secure units require to be operating at or near full capacity to break even. In other words, unless they are full or nearly full, they will sustain a revenue loss. That creates an extremely difficult challenge for them, to which I wanted to alert Parliament formally. That is why we want any closure not to be driven by financial considerations but to arise in a planned way, and why SOFI has been charged to do such work, which we will bring back to Parliament for discussion in due course.
The problems are very real. Given that the average cost per week per child is £4,500, we are talking about a very large sum of money to look after a group whose members include some of the most challenged and vulnerable children in Scotland, as well as children who have committed crimes and who present a real safety risk to the public.
I am not in the business of being a guarantor. I am a Government minister; I am not undertaking the somewhat fixed and absolute role of a guarantor. By working together across parties with everyone involved, we can at least reach the best solution so that a substantial number of secure places will continue to be available in Scotland, which I hope will be adequate for the purpose—although, as Bill Aitken will understand, it is a demand-led service.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a statement by Fergus Ewing on strengthening Scotland's secure accommodation. The minister will take questions at the end of his...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
I very much welcome the opportunity to tell members about the work that we are doing to improve the effectiveness of secure accommodation in Scotland. I will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The minister will take questions on the issues raised in his statement. I intend to allow around 30 minutes for questions.
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the minister for the advance copy of his statement.We agree that it is vital that the secure accommodation estate is fit for purpose and that the rig...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I welcome Richard Baker's general approach to the issue. I will try to answer as best I can each of his questions in turn.First, it seems to us entirely reas...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I thank the minister for early sight of his statement, which I find to be measured and realistic, in contrast to some of the statements that he made earlier ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
The secure units are considerably aware of the need to treat separately youngsters who are in secure units for different reasons. When I visited the new, ult...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I, too, welcome much of what the minister said in his statement—with the possible exception of the addition to the language of two new acronyms, which we cou...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We intend to introduce the criminal justice bill next year, through which we will abolish unruly certificates.I fully agree that Kibble provides many facilit...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP):
SNP
When I visited the Elms in Dundee, I was incredibly impressed by the commitment and dedication of the staff. Secure units such as the Elms have an important ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I join Joe FitzPatrick in acknowledging the work that is carried out by the Elms in Dundee. I believe that it caters for boys and girls and that it is manage...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
I concur with the minister's consensual vision of how we can take secure accommodation forward. However, I would like him to assure us that the resources tha...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I can provide an assurance that we want to continue to see the funding of those places. Part of the funding is from the Scottish Government and part is from ...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the minister's statement, particularly his reference to the incident at St Mary's at the beginning of the year. What discussions are taking place a...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I should say that St Mary's operated for 32 years without incident and received extremely positive reports. The staff there have done an excellent job. Probl...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the minister's statement, particularly as Mr Ewing's boss, Mr MacAskill, wrote to me on 17 September to say that he did not think that a statement ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I am pleased to have made my statement. It was right to make one today, and members have welcomed it.Mr Whitton and I met St Mary's managers, and had a thoro...
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
We are all relieved that the actions that the St Mary's board of management has taken have resolved the crisis of earlier this year. However, I want to press...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Plainly, the incident at St Mary's was unique. The member appears to suggest that other incidents of young people absconding from secure units have occurred ...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The minister is concerned about overcapacity. Can he give the Parliament a flavour of that? What was the level of underoccupancy at the last count, and is it...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I stress that youngsters are sent to secure units only as a very last resort. No youngster is sent there unless other options have been considered and tried....
Christina McKelvie (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that every member welcomes the minister's commitment to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Will he seek to write the convent...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We certainly respect and acknowledge the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and we wish to ensure that the practical imports of its provisions are ful...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the minister's acknowledgement that, because of overcapacity in the system, there are serious issues in relation to the future of secure accommodat...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I can share details of SOFI's membership with members. I thought that it was publicly available anyway, but I will ensure that the Scottish Parliament inform...
Gil Paterson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I lived directly opposite the St Mary's unit in Bishopbriggs for a number of years, and I had the experience of dealing with some of the young people from th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Does the member have a question?
Gil Paterson:
SNP
I have a question.Will the minister examine the use of intensive support and monitoring services? That would benefit some young people, such as those whom I ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Intensive support and monitoring services were introduced in 2004, as an alternative to secure accommodation for young people aged between 12 and 17 who are ...