Chamber
Plenary, 09 Oct 2008
09 Oct 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Elections 2007
We should welcome the fact that the Local Government and Communities Committee's report on the 2007 election has once more given us the chance to debate an issue—the method by which we select a Government—that exercises many a political anorak and academic. It is worth acknowledging the fact that since May 2007 I have not had to deal with one piece of constituency work relating to the issue; in fact, I have received no local correspondence on electoral systems in the nine years for which I have been an MSP. However, the matter is important, even if the electorate do not get as animated about it as we do.
As members have pointed out, the democratic process is a vital component of an orderly society. Those who participate in the process must be assured that the system is just and will result in an outcome in which they can have confidence; whether people write to us in the aftermath of any problems that arise is not the issue. Although people must have a chance to have their say on the issues that emerged last year, I hope that this morning's debate will be the last time that we have to discuss them. Surely it is time for us to move on from what happened last May and to concentrate on introducing the recommendations that members of the Local Government and Communities Committee have made.
I agree with many of the committee's recommendations, but I am not entirely convinced by the view that there should be decoupling of Scottish Parliament and local government elections. I say to Mr McLetchie that if this were a show trial, I would be heading to the gulag. I accept that I have lost the argument on decoupling, but my concerns about the decision remain. Many colleagues in the chamber and in local authority chambers across Scotland agree with decoupling, because they believe that it will enable the public to distinguish clearly between the work that is done here in Holyrood and the work that local authorities do. I am not sure that the Scottish Government will always welcome decoupling as warmly as it does now, given the problems that it has created for local government through the partnership that it has established with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—the famous hysterical concordat. Decoupling will allow us to give closer scrutiny to what local authorities have or have not done with the reduced funding that the Scottish Government has provided. I wonder whether the hysterical con will stand up to that scrutiny.
I add a note of caution on the recommendation. We should not forget that turnout at local elections was on a downward trend before 1999. Many people believed that the reason for the decline was that the first-past-the-post system discouraged voters from turning out; they tried to convince us that putting in place a proportional representation system would help to overcome the problem. However, we cannot trust that simplistic analysis. If having a PR system encourages voter turnout, turnout in the proportional elections to this Parliament should be higher than in the first-past-the-post elections to Westminster, but we all know that that has not been the case. There is a real danger of reduced turnout in local elections. I wonder whether the situation will change when local elections are again held separately, as that would be to the detriment of our local authorities.
For me, the most important recommendation in the committee's report and in the Gould report is that the administrative side of Scottish Parliament elections should be passed to the Parliament. I am in favour of such a move, but I do not believe that total control of those elections should be passed to the Parliament—I am pleased that the legislative part of the process will remain at Westminster. If the Labour Government, which introduced devolution in Scotland, still holds to the position in which it believed in 1996 and 1997, a quick response from the new Secretary of State for Scotland to reiterate its opinion is in no way a knee-jerk reaction—it is a restatement of a view that the Government has held for 10 years.
As members have pointed out, the democratic process is a vital component of an orderly society. Those who participate in the process must be assured that the system is just and will result in an outcome in which they can have confidence; whether people write to us in the aftermath of any problems that arise is not the issue. Although people must have a chance to have their say on the issues that emerged last year, I hope that this morning's debate will be the last time that we have to discuss them. Surely it is time for us to move on from what happened last May and to concentrate on introducing the recommendations that members of the Local Government and Communities Committee have made.
I agree with many of the committee's recommendations, but I am not entirely convinced by the view that there should be decoupling of Scottish Parliament and local government elections. I say to Mr McLetchie that if this were a show trial, I would be heading to the gulag. I accept that I have lost the argument on decoupling, but my concerns about the decision remain. Many colleagues in the chamber and in local authority chambers across Scotland agree with decoupling, because they believe that it will enable the public to distinguish clearly between the work that is done here in Holyrood and the work that local authorities do. I am not sure that the Scottish Government will always welcome decoupling as warmly as it does now, given the problems that it has created for local government through the partnership that it has established with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—the famous hysterical concordat. Decoupling will allow us to give closer scrutiny to what local authorities have or have not done with the reduced funding that the Scottish Government has provided. I wonder whether the hysterical con will stand up to that scrutiny.
I add a note of caution on the recommendation. We should not forget that turnout at local elections was on a downward trend before 1999. Many people believed that the reason for the decline was that the first-past-the-post system discouraged voters from turning out; they tried to convince us that putting in place a proportional representation system would help to overcome the problem. However, we cannot trust that simplistic analysis. If having a PR system encourages voter turnout, turnout in the proportional elections to this Parliament should be higher than in the first-past-the-post elections to Westminster, but we all know that that has not been the case. There is a real danger of reduced turnout in local elections. I wonder whether the situation will change when local elections are again held separately, as that would be to the detriment of our local authorities.
For me, the most important recommendation in the committee's report and in the Gould report is that the administrative side of Scottish Parliament elections should be passed to the Parliament. I am in favour of such a move, but I do not believe that total control of those elections should be passed to the Parliament—I am pleased that the legislative part of the process will remain at Westminster. If the Labour Government, which introduced devolution in Scotland, still holds to the position in which it believed in 1996 and 1997, a quick response from the new Secretary of State for Scotland to reiterate its opinion is in no way a knee-jerk reaction—it is a restatement of a view that the Government has held for 10 years.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S3M-2667, in the name of Duncan McNeil, on behalf of the Local Government and Com...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
Let me start by thanking the committee members, the clerks, the officers and the Scottish Parliament information centre for all their hard work and patience ...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Bruce Crawford):
SNP
I wrote to the convener of the committee on 1 August to respond formally to the committee's report. I said that I was grateful for the committee's detailed c...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
We are here to consider the report into the circumstances surrounding the elections for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish local authorities that the Parli...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
Much rhetorical hot air has been expended on the debacle of the elections to the Scottish Parliament and Scotland's councils on 3 May last year when, as we k...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD):
LD
It has been said that, in a democracy, the most important office is that of citizen. Sadly, it is clear from the analysis of last year's electoral process th...
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
I have read carefully what was said by the Electoral Commission, which has made a useful contribution to the debate. However, I find it difficult to understa...
Alison McInnes:
LD
As I said, the suggestion is worthy of further consideration. Before we come to conclusions, we should explore it further. We need something that refines the...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We come to speeches in the open debate. Members have a tight 6 minutes.
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
In looking at the Gould report and considering its recommendations and their impact on the local government elections, it became apparent to members of the L...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab):
Lab
Mr Gould also said to the committee:"We do not need to bring responsibility for all elections to the Scottish Parliament in order to get clarity."—Official R...
Bob Doris:
SNP
He said that, but he also said that responsibility should go to the Scottish Parliament because that would be the logical choice.I had hoped that today's deb...
Duncan McNeil:
Lab
Does the member think that it was remiss of the committee—albeit that I suggested it—that we did not seek to broaden the remit of our inquiry to look at Scot...
Bob Doris:
SNP
The committee convener makes a good point, but if legislative responsibility were to be brought to this chamber that would happen quite naturally.Yesterday, ...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
We should welcome the fact that the Local Government and Communities Committee's report on the 2007 election has once more given us the chance to debate an i...
Bob Doris:
SNP
Would it not have been advisable and courteous for the Secretary of State for Scotland to await the outcome of today's debate first?
Michael McMahon:
Lab
I do not think that that would have mattered, given that he was restating a 10-year-old policy that the Government has no intention of changing. I could have...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Every member who stood for election last year has their own experiences of the May 2007 Scottish Parliament and local government elections; David Whitton des...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and I commend the committee for its work in producing its comprehensive report.There is no doubt that al...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD):
LD
The May 2007 election debacle was a dark day for democracy in Scotland. More than 85,000 votes were rejected in the constituency ballots and more than 60,000...
Andy Kerr:
Lab
For clarity, will the member remind the Parliament of his party's position on the ballot paper and on decoupling the elections?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I will come on to those points. I do not believe that we should tinker with the system; fundamental change is needed.The debacle in May 2007 was a serious fa...
Gavin Brown (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Does the member regret the trebling in the failure of voting at council level in 2007, as compared with 2003 and 1999?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I regret any spoiled ballot. However, it is important to emphasise that the dramatic shift was in the failure of voting under the Scottish Parliament voting ...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Today's debate is welcome, although much of the ground covered in the Local Government and Communities Committee's report is not exactly new. Scotland's expe...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
The opening speakers all emphasised the importance of putting voters first when designing electoral systems. That is important, and it is the right thing to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
Order. The member must withdraw that remark.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I withdraw that remark. There is an issue around voter fatigue. Not next year, but in future we will end up with voters being asked to vote every year, wheth...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
How infuriating that Des McNulty ended that speech with something—fixed terms—that I agree with him on.I thank the Local Government and Communities Committee...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I, too, thank the Local Government and Communities Committee for its report on what I would call the chaotic 2007 elections; I also thank all who gave eviden...