Chamber
Plenary, 12 Jun 2008
12 Jun 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Expenses Scheme
I have very little time.
It is worth recording that every member of the SPCB agreed that the Langlands report used figures at the 2007-08 level and that all figures should be uprated to 2008-09 levels. It is unfortunate that the Labour Party changed its mind, which means that Ms Baillie's amendment and my amendment reflect staff salaries at the 2007-08 level. It is ironic that Ms Baillie and the Labour Party are prepared to deny staff money while arguing that constituency MSPs should get much more than regional MSPs in staff allowance. It is also interesting that the uprating will continue to apply to office costs and overnight expenses for MSPs—but not to staff salaries. Ms Baillie never sought to amend figures for those items to bring them back to the 2007-08 level.
As I said, it is a point of principle that there should be no disparity in the status of constituency and of regional members. That is one of the founding principles of the Parliament, and the Parliament's code of conduct for MSPs, which was approved by the Parliament, states that all MSPs are equal, regardless of how they are elected. If the Parliament is to move away from that principle, overwhelming evidence that we should do so must be presented. However, there is no such overwhelming evidence, as Tom McCabe acknowledged. Indeed, the evidence that the review team considered was scant, as Alan Langlands acknowledged in paragraph 5.25 of his report, where he said:
"we could not make a detailed assessment of caseload. In the event that the SPCB or the Parliament disagrees with our recommendations on staffing we would consider it appropriate for the SPCB to undertake further research".
However, the principle of parity would have been dispensed with before such research was undertaken, and we are not prepared to accept that.
Therefore, in addition to seeking parity on how much each member can claim for staff salary costs, I propose that a new principle should be added to the principles that are set out in the draft scheme. Members will also see from my amendment that I propose that if we agree on parity of staff salary provision for all members, there will be no need for the SPCB to review that provision in future and, therefore, my amendment seeks not to provide the SPCB with the power to vary staff salaries in future, with the exception of annual uprating. It is important to accept the principle of equality, which is enshrined in the amendment in my name.
I acknowledge that the resolution before us includes the facility for members to vire or transfer on a one-off basis a third of their provision for office costs to staff costs. I also propose in my amendment that where a member does not lease an office, the office cost abatement should be 50 per cent and not 75 per cent, as the resolution proposes. Margo MacDonald also makes that point in her amendment. The review panel noted that some members may decide not to have a local office and to work instead out of their office in the Parliament. My amendment recognises that the financial commitment for those members will not be as great as it is for members who have offices and that, in that case, the abatement should be reduced to 50 per cent.
I welcome the provisions in the draft scheme to allow a member to apply to the SPCB for reimbursement of any exceptional expenses that they incur. However, special recognition should be given to the needs of independent members and members of smaller parties who may not have the capacity to share workload and resources in the way that members of the larger parties can do in certain circumstances.
I return to the main element of my amendment, which is supported by the Conservatives, the Greens and, indeed, members of all parties: the principle of parity. No evidence was given to support a deviation from the long-held principle of the Parliament that all members should be treated equally. I hope that members accept that and that we can move forward.
I move amendment S3M-2092.2,
(a) in paragraph 1.1.2 of Annex 1 to the Resolution (the Reimbursement of Members' Expenses Scheme) insert at end
"Equality
All members have equal formal and legal status.";
(b) in paragraph 1.2.5 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "paragraphs 3.2.1 and 3.2.2" and insert "paragraph 3.2.1";
(c) in paragraph 1.2.6 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "staff salary costs under paragraphs 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 and";
(d) in Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out
"3.2.1 A constituency member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates.
3.2.2 A regional member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates."
and insert
"3.2.1 A member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates."
(e) in Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "3.2.3" and insert "3.2.2";
(f) in paragraph 3.3.1 of Annex 1 to the Resolution leave out "3.2.3(a)" and insert "3.2.2(a)";
(g) in paragraph 4.3.1 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "25%" and insert "50%";
(h) in Annex 1 to the Resolution after
"7.2.1 A member may apply to the SPCB for reimbursement of any exceptional expenses to be incurred by that member in connection with the performance of parliamentary duties."
insert
"7.2.2 In determining any application under paragraph 7.2.1 the SPCB shall, where applicable, recognise the distinctive needs of members not aligned to any political party or members aligned to a political party with fewer than five members."; and
(i) leave out
"ANNEX 2 TO THE RESOLUTION
This is the Schedule of Rates referred to in the foregoing resolution.
SCHEDULE OF RATES
PARAGRAPH
DESCRIPTION
LIMIT
2.1.7
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of overnight accommodation or leased accommodation in Edinburgh
£11,900
3.2.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs for a constituency member
£64,300
3.2.2
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs for a regional member
£46,700
4.2.3
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a constituency member
£15,600
4.2.4
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a single regional member or for a non-aligned regional member
£15,600
4.5.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of telecommunications costs
£1,183
4.6.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of surgery advertising costs
£1,560
9.1.1
Overnight Accommodation in UK (excluding Greater London)
£133.87 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation in Greater London, Brussels or Strasbourg
£156.36 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation elsewhere outside UK
As determined by the SPCB
and insert
"ANNEX 2 TO THE RESOLUTION
This is the Schedule of Rates referred to in the foregoing resolution.
SCHEDULE OF RATES
PARAGRAPH
DESCRIPTION
LIMIT
2.1.7
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of overnight accommodation or leased accommodation in Edinburgh
£11,900
3.2.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs
£54,620
4.2.3
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a constituency member
£15,600
4.2.4
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a single regional member or for a non-aligned regional member
£15,600
4.5.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of telecommunications costs
£1,183
4.6.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of surgery advertising costs
£1,560
9.1.1
Overnight Accommodation in UK (excluding Greater London)
£133.87 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation in Greater London, Brussels or Strasbourg
£156.36 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation elsewhere outside UK
As determined by the SPCB
It is worth recording that every member of the SPCB agreed that the Langlands report used figures at the 2007-08 level and that all figures should be uprated to 2008-09 levels. It is unfortunate that the Labour Party changed its mind, which means that Ms Baillie's amendment and my amendment reflect staff salaries at the 2007-08 level. It is ironic that Ms Baillie and the Labour Party are prepared to deny staff money while arguing that constituency MSPs should get much more than regional MSPs in staff allowance. It is also interesting that the uprating will continue to apply to office costs and overnight expenses for MSPs—but not to staff salaries. Ms Baillie never sought to amend figures for those items to bring them back to the 2007-08 level.
As I said, it is a point of principle that there should be no disparity in the status of constituency and of regional members. That is one of the founding principles of the Parliament, and the Parliament's code of conduct for MSPs, which was approved by the Parliament, states that all MSPs are equal, regardless of how they are elected. If the Parliament is to move away from that principle, overwhelming evidence that we should do so must be presented. However, there is no such overwhelming evidence, as Tom McCabe acknowledged. Indeed, the evidence that the review team considered was scant, as Alan Langlands acknowledged in paragraph 5.25 of his report, where he said:
"we could not make a detailed assessment of caseload. In the event that the SPCB or the Parliament disagrees with our recommendations on staffing we would consider it appropriate for the SPCB to undertake further research".
However, the principle of parity would have been dispensed with before such research was undertaken, and we are not prepared to accept that.
Therefore, in addition to seeking parity on how much each member can claim for staff salary costs, I propose that a new principle should be added to the principles that are set out in the draft scheme. Members will also see from my amendment that I propose that if we agree on parity of staff salary provision for all members, there will be no need for the SPCB to review that provision in future and, therefore, my amendment seeks not to provide the SPCB with the power to vary staff salaries in future, with the exception of annual uprating. It is important to accept the principle of equality, which is enshrined in the amendment in my name.
I acknowledge that the resolution before us includes the facility for members to vire or transfer on a one-off basis a third of their provision for office costs to staff costs. I also propose in my amendment that where a member does not lease an office, the office cost abatement should be 50 per cent and not 75 per cent, as the resolution proposes. Margo MacDonald also makes that point in her amendment. The review panel noted that some members may decide not to have a local office and to work instead out of their office in the Parliament. My amendment recognises that the financial commitment for those members will not be as great as it is for members who have offices and that, in that case, the abatement should be reduced to 50 per cent.
I welcome the provisions in the draft scheme to allow a member to apply to the SPCB for reimbursement of any exceptional expenses that they incur. However, special recognition should be given to the needs of independent members and members of smaller parties who may not have the capacity to share workload and resources in the way that members of the larger parties can do in certain circumstances.
I return to the main element of my amendment, which is supported by the Conservatives, the Greens and, indeed, members of all parties: the principle of parity. No evidence was given to support a deviation from the long-held principle of the Parliament that all members should be treated equally. I hope that members accept that and that we can move forward.
I move amendment S3M-2092.2,
(a) in paragraph 1.1.2 of Annex 1 to the Resolution (the Reimbursement of Members' Expenses Scheme) insert at end
"Equality
All members have equal formal and legal status.";
(b) in paragraph 1.2.5 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "paragraphs 3.2.1 and 3.2.2" and insert "paragraph 3.2.1";
(c) in paragraph 1.2.6 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "staff salary costs under paragraphs 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 and";
(d) in Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out
"3.2.1 A constituency member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates.
3.2.2 A regional member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates."
and insert
"3.2.1 A member is entitled to reimbursement of staff salary costs subject to the limit in any financial year specified in the Schedule of Rates."
(e) in Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "3.2.3" and insert "3.2.2";
(f) in paragraph 3.3.1 of Annex 1 to the Resolution leave out "3.2.3(a)" and insert "3.2.2(a)";
(g) in paragraph 4.3.1 of Annex 1 to the Resolution, leave out "25%" and insert "50%";
(h) in Annex 1 to the Resolution after
"7.2.1 A member may apply to the SPCB for reimbursement of any exceptional expenses to be incurred by that member in connection with the performance of parliamentary duties."
insert
"7.2.2 In determining any application under paragraph 7.2.1 the SPCB shall, where applicable, recognise the distinctive needs of members not aligned to any political party or members aligned to a political party with fewer than five members."; and
(i) leave out
"ANNEX 2 TO THE RESOLUTION
This is the Schedule of Rates referred to in the foregoing resolution.
SCHEDULE OF RATES
PARAGRAPH
DESCRIPTION
LIMIT
2.1.7
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of overnight accommodation or leased accommodation in Edinburgh
£11,900
3.2.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs for a constituency member
£64,300
3.2.2
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs for a regional member
£46,700
4.2.3
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a constituency member
£15,600
4.2.4
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a single regional member or for a non-aligned regional member
£15,600
4.5.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of telecommunications costs
£1,183
4.6.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of surgery advertising costs
£1,560
9.1.1
Overnight Accommodation in UK (excluding Greater London)
£133.87 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation in Greater London, Brussels or Strasbourg
£156.36 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation elsewhere outside UK
As determined by the SPCB
and insert
"ANNEX 2 TO THE RESOLUTION
This is the Schedule of Rates referred to in the foregoing resolution.
SCHEDULE OF RATES
PARAGRAPH
DESCRIPTION
LIMIT
2.1.7
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of overnight accommodation or leased accommodation in Edinburgh
£11,900
3.2.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of staff salary costs
£54,620
4.2.3
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a constituency member
£15,600
4.2.4
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of office costs for a single regional member or for a non-aligned regional member
£15,600
4.5.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of telecommunications costs
£1,183
4.6.1
Annual limit on entitlement to reimbursement of surgery advertising costs
£1,560
9.1.1
Overnight Accommodation in UK (excluding Greater London)
£133.87 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation in Greater London, Brussels or Strasbourg
£156.36 per night
9.1.1
Overnight accommodation elsewhere outside UK
As determined by the SPCB
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-2092, in the name of Tom McCabe, on the expenses scheme.
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab):
Lab
I rise, on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, to speak to the recommendations of an independent review panel on members' expenses.In light ...
Tricia Marwick (Central Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I record my thanks for the work of Sir Alan Langlands and the other members of the review panel, who presented us with a comprehensive report on a proposed n...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Tricia Marwick:
SNP
I have very little time.It is worth recording that every member of the SPCB agreed that the Langlands report used figures at the 2007-08 level and that all f...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab):
Lab
Lyndon B Johnson once said:"You've got to work things out in the cloakroom. When you've got them worked out, you can debate a little before you vote."Today, ...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
Does the member agree that the study that was carried out on behalf of the Langlands committee did not examine a representative sample of regional and consti...
Michael McMahon:
Lab
I agree with that. I was coming to that point.The point that has been made about parity is the same as arguing that a head of history and a head of physical ...
Gil Paterson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
United we stand.
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We do not need sedentary interventions between speeches, thank you.
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I add my thanks to those that have already been recorded for the work that was done by the Langlands committee. My amendments rest on two propositions. The f...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I will establish the point and come back to the member.I agree completely with the report's identification of Sarah Boyack's office as the quality benchmark ...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Margo MacDonald says that the public do not care about the way in which members are elected. I suspect that she might be right in a way, but the fact is that...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
With all due respect to the member, I do not think that that point is proved.In list members' offices, which have proportionately lower numbers of individual...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
My amendment does not seek to deny our staff appropriate salaries. Does Margo MacDonald therefore regret that the SPCB removed any reference to pay scales fo...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
On the first point, I could not agree more: there should be salary scales. On the second point, I feel that the principle is either accepted or rejected. I r...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
In closing, Ms MacDonald.
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I feel that islands MSPs are particularly hard done to. I urge all my fellow members not to vote on party-political grounds. They should think of this as a P...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I will try to keep my speech brief. I speak in support of Tricia Marwick's amendment, but I approve of and support the vast majority of what Tom McCabe said....
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Alex Johnstone:
Con
No, thank you.The many members who have made representations on the need to ensure adequate office support have made good cases.Finally, I want to express an...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD):
LD
I speak in a personal capacity. The Liberal Democrats believe that this is an important matter for Parliament to decide, so we will have a free vote.I will c...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Will the member give way?
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Ross Finnie:
LD
Let me make this point. I do not doubt for a moment that casework is, or could be, an issue, but I find it incredible that the review panel found no other ma...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
I accept that the inquiry was missing detailed information on that point, but I can give Ross Finnie an example. "The Code of Conduct for Members of the Scot...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I am sorry that Cathie Craigie is not listening. I have not disputed that casework is an issue; I am saying that casework is not the only issue in comparing ...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Will the member give way?
Ross Finnie:
LD
No.I thought that that was the review panel's remit, but it does not explain why, if it was so deficient in evidence, it did not pause for reflection and cal...