Chamber
Plenary, 15 May 2008
15 May 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Free Personal Care
I reiterate what the cabinet secretary said: this debate is indeed important and welcome. I also reiterate what was said last week. We thank Lord Sutherland and the members of the review group for their work, which has produced a striking and commanding report that seeks to address fundamental issues that are germane to the stabilisation of the free personal care policy and its sustainability in the longer term.
The report demonstrates that addressing demographic change and its implications for public service and the nation's resources is one of the most important challenges that Governments of whatever perspective face. I hope that we can rise to that challenge and that we conduct this debate mindful of it.
As I said after the cabinet secretary's statement last week, the introduction of free personal care by the then Labour-Lib Dem Executive was groundbreaking. There were many difficulties to be overcome, but it is significant that Lord Sutherland recognised that the policy was implemented speedily and with resolution, and that it was fully funded. However, even over a relatively short time, demographics have shifted outwith predictions, which has significant implications. It is nonetheless reassuring for all of us that Lord Sutherland has deemed the free personal care policy in Scotland to be working well. I argue that it provides a base from which to develop innovative, sensitive and effective approaches.
That said, a few key issues require to be addressed. Lord Sutherland has sent out a clarion call, and we must begin to understand and deal with those issues. In that context, I was disappointed that the cabinet secretary did not address them.
Demographic change is the most serious issue that we face. We know that, within 25 years, we will be looking at costs of approximately £800 million a year, and we must work through the full implications of that. However, Lord Sutherland has demanded that urgent action be taken now before the demographics
"begin to bite, from around 2013",
which is not far away.
Labour lodged its amendment in that context. Now is the time to begin to reassess all the funding streams that are relevant to the care of the elderly. The report refers to examining
"health, social and personal care and housing support".
Now is the time for "fruitful cross-border conversations", to use Lord Sutherland's words. We urge the Scottish Government to enter into such discussions and to undertake what Lord Sutherland referred to as
"a very radical examination of the effects of demographic growth".
The report demonstrates that addressing demographic change and its implications for public service and the nation's resources is one of the most important challenges that Governments of whatever perspective face. I hope that we can rise to that challenge and that we conduct this debate mindful of it.
As I said after the cabinet secretary's statement last week, the introduction of free personal care by the then Labour-Lib Dem Executive was groundbreaking. There were many difficulties to be overcome, but it is significant that Lord Sutherland recognised that the policy was implemented speedily and with resolution, and that it was fully funded. However, even over a relatively short time, demographics have shifted outwith predictions, which has significant implications. It is nonetheless reassuring for all of us that Lord Sutherland has deemed the free personal care policy in Scotland to be working well. I argue that it provides a base from which to develop innovative, sensitive and effective approaches.
That said, a few key issues require to be addressed. Lord Sutherland has sent out a clarion call, and we must begin to understand and deal with those issues. In that context, I was disappointed that the cabinet secretary did not address them.
Demographic change is the most serious issue that we face. We know that, within 25 years, we will be looking at costs of approximately £800 million a year, and we must work through the full implications of that. However, Lord Sutherland has demanded that urgent action be taken now before the demographics
"begin to bite, from around 2013",
which is not far away.
Labour lodged its amendment in that context. Now is the time to begin to reassess all the funding streams that are relevant to the care of the elderly. The report refers to examining
"health, social and personal care and housing support".
Now is the time for "fruitful cross-border conversations", to use Lord Sutherland's words. We urge the Scottish Government to enter into such discussions and to undertake what Lord Sutherland referred to as
"a very radical examination of the effects of demographic growth".
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1902, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on free personal care.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon):
SNP
I welcome this opportunity for members to consider and explore more fully our response to the independent funding review of free personal and nursing care. T...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
No. If Lord Foulkes cares to listen to me for now, I will take an intervention later.When Labour said two weeks ago that it accepted all Lord Sutherland's re...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I would be happy to hear Lord Foulkes's explanation of the U-turn.
George Foulkes:
Lab
First, I want to offer a little piece of advice. So far, the cabinet secretary is not being very clever in trying to convince us to accept anything that she ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
I have not discussed the Barnett formula.Mr Foulkes, this is an intervention.
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I say to Lord George Foulkes that whatever else the Barnett formula may or may not be intended to do, it is not intended to penalise and punish this Parliame...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Lord George Foulkes has had sufficient time to intervene already.The second reason to pursue the issue relates to the point made last week by Ross Finnie. Th...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I will of course explain the substance behind our amendment in my speech. Does the cabinet secretary acknowledge that, in his report, Lord Sutherland recogni...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I hope that the later explanation of Labour's U-turn is better than that pathetic effort from Margaret Curran.The third reason to pursue the issue involves t...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am in my last minute.I agree whole-heartedly with Labour's former First Minister Henry McLeish that the issue should not be a matter of petty rivalries. It...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I reiterate what the cabinet secretary said: this debate is indeed important and welcome. I also reiterate what was said last week. We thank Lord Sutherland ...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I accept the points that Margaret Curran makes. She is absolutely right and has correctly quoted Lord Sutherland. However, he also said that before we review...
Margaret Curran:
Lab
I was just about to address the issue of attendance allowance directly. To some extent, Nicola Sturgeon has made my case for me. In her fairly lengthy speech...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
Margaret Curran:
Lab
I ask Christine Grahame to let me make a point that I need to make.We accept and have argued consistently that the resources should come to Scotland, but I w...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
We welcome this debate on free personal and nursing care, which is often referred to as the flagship policy of the Scottish Parliament's first session. In mo...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD):
LD
The position of the Liberal Democrats remains that one of the hallmarks of a civilised society is how it looks after its elderly. In common with many, we hav...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?
Ross Finnie:
LD
I hope that this intervention will be considerably briefer than the member's earlier intervention. However, I am graciously pleased to allow him to intervene.
George Foulkes:
Lab
Ross Finnie will remember that the UK Government, of which I was a member at the time, made it absolutely clear that it could not make a specific grant to th...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I do not mind entirely accurate recollections but, with all due respect, that intervention was not entirely accurate. I do not think that the then Scottish E...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab):
Lab
That is a gross misinterpretation of the Wanless report, the point of which is the need for a broad and strategic review of the policy. Indeed, that is why t...
Ross Finnie:
LD
Ross Finnie might not have got it correct, but he knows that after setting out three possible models, including free personal care for the elderly and a part...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Ross Finnie on his thorough and logical analysis of the issue and support the Liberal Democrat amendment. As those who recall my question to t...
Margaret Curran:
Lab
Christine Grahame must appreciate the argument that I am making today. I am not saying that the attendance allowance issue should not be addressed. My issue ...