Chamber
Plenary, 23 Apr 2008
23 Apr 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Scotland and Local Authorities
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of years. I am sure that my colleagues in East Ayrshire Council will warmly welcome the opportunity to bid for some of the £8 million from the extended conservation area regeneration scheme announced by the minister.
My views are informed by my experience of dealing with local planning matters and by the views I hear expressed by colleagues, council officers and local communities. Some members have mentioned that on occasion Historic Scotland gets a bad press. It is sometimes portrayed as a barrier to development, especially by prospective developers. It is seen as too slow to respond and lacking in the detailed local knowledge needed to make the decisions that are asked of it. On the other hand, those with a specific interest in the historic environment often portray local authorities as lacking in vision, being too focused on current pressures and lacking the specialist knowledge needed to manage the historic environment. The result of those competing stereotypes is that local authorities and Historic Scotland have been tasked with dual responsibility for scrutinising developments. That is often wasteful of resources, slows the development process down and compounds the lack of clarity about responsibilities.
The stereotypes, however, do not stand up to scrutiny. While preparing my speech, I was struck by the positive side to the relationship between Historic Scotland and East Ayrshire Council. Specifically, Historic Scotland has been supportive of the authority's approach to conservation areas. At the recent Scottish awards for quality in planning, the overall award went to East Ayrshire Council for its maintenance manual, which was produced for the John Finnie Street conservation area in Kilmarnock, a project that received support and considerable funding from Historic Scotland. It has also been supportive of our council's action to serve listed buildings repair notices on the former ABC cinema in Kilmarnock. Nevertheless, we might wish to strengthen our powers when, for example, rogue owners strip a building of its internal fabric, which may be of historical and architectural value. I hope that the extended delegated powers that the minister announced might assist us in that regard.
Recent changes in Historic Scotland's approach have been warmly welcomed. It has become more proactive, it is engaging more directly on service delivery and it is consulting and sharing expertise. Such partnership working should be developed and replicated across Scotland. I am pleased that the minister encouraged that approach.
I am also encouraged by the minister's remarks about the planning responsibilities of local authorities. The planning process should be the critical link between local authorities and Historic Scotland. It is within that process, led by local authorities, that the balance is struck between protecting the historic environment and the local community's changing needs and aspirations. The national planning framework and the changing relationship between the Scottish Government and local authorities are important developments. All the partners will have to meet new challenges and must be equipped to respond to them.
I fully support the HEACS recommendations for an audit of local authority capacity and for a rebalancing of the relationship between local authorities and Historic Scotland. Whatever the outcome of the audit, it should not be used as an excuse to halt the momentum for change. A return to the era of a command and control relationship between the Government and local authorities is not an option.
We can see the failure of that approach in cities, towns and villages throughout Scotland over many years. Whole tracts of successful, long-established urban environments were decimated in the name of progress, or modernism, as it might have been called in those days, with no strategic goals and little community involvement or approval for many of the schemes.
We are learning to our cost that, when we make big mistakes in the fabric of our urban areas, we live with the consequences for many years. Communities recognise that, as I am sure do the members in the chamber. We must therefore give our communities a pivotal role in the development of their local environment. The historic environment provides a sense of place for our communities. It distinguishes one community from another in a way that too many recent developments have not done. It can also provide a strong base on which to build new economic development, either by remaining in active use or as a strong component in attracting tourists to view unique parts of our heritage.
Historic Scotland has for many years played a key role in protecting the historic environment, but Scotland needs to change and the way in which we manage our historic environment needs to change with it. Scotland's local authorities should exercise more power locally and therefore be more accountable to their electorate.
We need to set out clearly our national vision and the outcomes that we want to achieve, and we must identify the resources required to deliver them. It should be possible to set new standards while encouraging local flexibility. Challenging times lie ahead. The development of Scotland's cities, towns and villages can successfully embrace the past while looking ahead and planning for an exciting future. I am delighted to support the Government's motion.
My views are informed by my experience of dealing with local planning matters and by the views I hear expressed by colleagues, council officers and local communities. Some members have mentioned that on occasion Historic Scotland gets a bad press. It is sometimes portrayed as a barrier to development, especially by prospective developers. It is seen as too slow to respond and lacking in the detailed local knowledge needed to make the decisions that are asked of it. On the other hand, those with a specific interest in the historic environment often portray local authorities as lacking in vision, being too focused on current pressures and lacking the specialist knowledge needed to manage the historic environment. The result of those competing stereotypes is that local authorities and Historic Scotland have been tasked with dual responsibility for scrutinising developments. That is often wasteful of resources, slows the development process down and compounds the lack of clarity about responsibilities.
The stereotypes, however, do not stand up to scrutiny. While preparing my speech, I was struck by the positive side to the relationship between Historic Scotland and East Ayrshire Council. Specifically, Historic Scotland has been supportive of the authority's approach to conservation areas. At the recent Scottish awards for quality in planning, the overall award went to East Ayrshire Council for its maintenance manual, which was produced for the John Finnie Street conservation area in Kilmarnock, a project that received support and considerable funding from Historic Scotland. It has also been supportive of our council's action to serve listed buildings repair notices on the former ABC cinema in Kilmarnock. Nevertheless, we might wish to strengthen our powers when, for example, rogue owners strip a building of its internal fabric, which may be of historical and architectural value. I hope that the extended delegated powers that the minister announced might assist us in that regard.
Recent changes in Historic Scotland's approach have been warmly welcomed. It has become more proactive, it is engaging more directly on service delivery and it is consulting and sharing expertise. Such partnership working should be developed and replicated across Scotland. I am pleased that the minister encouraged that approach.
I am also encouraged by the minister's remarks about the planning responsibilities of local authorities. The planning process should be the critical link between local authorities and Historic Scotland. It is within that process, led by local authorities, that the balance is struck between protecting the historic environment and the local community's changing needs and aspirations. The national planning framework and the changing relationship between the Scottish Government and local authorities are important developments. All the partners will have to meet new challenges and must be equipped to respond to them.
I fully support the HEACS recommendations for an audit of local authority capacity and for a rebalancing of the relationship between local authorities and Historic Scotland. Whatever the outcome of the audit, it should not be used as an excuse to halt the momentum for change. A return to the era of a command and control relationship between the Government and local authorities is not an option.
We can see the failure of that approach in cities, towns and villages throughout Scotland over many years. Whole tracts of successful, long-established urban environments were decimated in the name of progress, or modernism, as it might have been called in those days, with no strategic goals and little community involvement or approval for many of the schemes.
We are learning to our cost that, when we make big mistakes in the fabric of our urban areas, we live with the consequences for many years. Communities recognise that, as I am sure do the members in the chamber. We must therefore give our communities a pivotal role in the development of their local environment. The historic environment provides a sense of place for our communities. It distinguishes one community from another in a way that too many recent developments have not done. It can also provide a strong base on which to build new economic development, either by remaining in active use or as a strong component in attracting tourists to view unique parts of our heritage.
Historic Scotland has for many years played a key role in protecting the historic environment, but Scotland needs to change and the way in which we manage our historic environment needs to change with it. Scotland's local authorities should exercise more power locally and therefore be more accountable to their electorate.
We need to set out clearly our national vision and the outcomes that we want to achieve, and we must identify the resources required to deliver them. It should be possible to set new standards while encouraging local flexibility. Challenging times lie ahead. The development of Scotland's cities, towns and villages can successfully embrace the past while looking ahead and planning for an exciting future. I am delighted to support the Government's motion.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on S3M-1751, in the name of Linda Fabiani, on Historic Scotland and local authorities.
The Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture (Linda Fabiani):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate, which allows me to highlight the many ways in which central and local government are working together to deliver a sustainab...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the announcement of the £8 million to continue the work of the conservation area regeneration scheme, and the key performance targets for planning ...
Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am a fan of Historic Scotland, although there are aspects of its operation with which I disagree, to which I will return. I continue to believe that the ag...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome this rare opportunity to focus on the role of Historic Scotland. At one point, I was concerned about whether there would be a ministerial statement...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the debate. Speeches should be of six minutes.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I very much welcome this opportunity to explore the co-operation between Historic Scotland and local authorities, which the minister has enhanced today with ...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on Historic Scotland and its joint working with local authorities, because we should discuss its role in administering Scotland's histo...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased to take part in a debate during which we have heard about numerous anomalies and difficulties relating to the work of our colleagues in Historic...
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
You alluded to Eilean Donan castle as having been a pile of rocks, but I remind you that it was under your party's Administration that Castle Tioram remained...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
That did not happen under my party's Administration.
John Farquhar Munro:
LD
I do not think that the issue was ever debated seriously in the Scottish Parliament, because it was simply a planning matter between Highland Council and His...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank John Farquhar Munro for reminding us that one of Scotland's iconic structures dates from only about 70 years ago, thus depriving us of any historical...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
There is no doubt that the conservation and reuse of buildings must rank highly in terms of sustainability. Ensuring that restoration is sympathetic is a cru...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
SNP
I start with a declaration of interest. Like many in the chamber, as a member of a local authority I have been involved in planning issues for a number of ye...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland.As others have said, our distinctive environment has been formed by centuries of activity by nature an...
Liam McArthur (Orkney) (LD):
LD
Like Patricia Ferguson and Willie Coffey, I declare an interest as a member of Historic Scotland. As a result of that membership, I have sons who have a heal...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member has one minute left.
Liam McArthur:
LD
In my constituency I know of situations in which there has been a complete failure to communicate properly or to engage with local stakeholders. Although I f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The member must conclude now.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, which has been very informative. In 2004, during a similar debate, I made a speech that was partially critical of Histor...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am happy to support Iain Smith's amendment, with its emphasis on effective engagement with local communities in relation to listed buildings. More generall...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
The most sensible thing that I have heard Malcolm Chisholm say today is that I will not have enough time. He is right: in the eight minutes that are availabl...