Chamber
Plenary, 26 Mar 2008
26 Mar 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Health Care Associated Infection
We welcome all that Nicola Sturgeon has said today in her speech and her interventions, including the MRSA pilot that she announced, in what has been a useful debate on a matter on which there is often more fresh heat than fresh thought. This is one of those problems for which there is a commonsense remedy that is all too often absent, or the message is in danger of becoming overcomplicated in its delivery.
My experience of being a hospital patient is relatively recent, as an accident and emergency admission within the NHS with what turned out to be a fairly routinely diagnosed complaint of gall stones one year and kidney stones the next. After treatment had helped alleviate the immediate discomfort, I found it fascinating just to watch. So much is made of the experience of patients by politicians that—admittedly, this is almost a perverse logic—it was almost a privilege to be a politician who was also the patient.
It was fascinating to watch the endless stream of individuals who strolled through the men's general surgical ward. There were committed public servants going about their business and there were patients and their families. The newspaper trolley man was astonished and unable to oblige when I requested The Herald—he ensured that the ward was made aware of the special delivery for "the professor" the next day to my bed in a window corner. There was the self-evident suspicion of fellow patients at the various baskets and bowls of spring bulbs that were delivered to the same corner—it was seemingly further evidence of, at the very least, some extravagant erudition.
There was the delight of the man opposite me, whose colostomy bag burst frequently in the night, or of the Irishman in the bed next to me, who did a runner because, as he confided to me, "The Southern general makes a much better job of drilling open a seized rear end." He was replaced by a young gentleman substantially the worse for wear after a Scotland match, whose excessively noisy comeuppance through the night was less than endearing. The hospital porters arrived, like buses, all at once—sometimes to ferry patients who had blocked a bed throughout the day and night for a routine X-ray, after which they could be discharged, but who as a result of lack of organisation lingered on, so other patients could not be admitted.
The staff—nurses, doctors, consultants, deliverers of meals and cleaning staff—were all doing their best, and the other patients were an on-going delight. There was the disembodied conversation heard over the partitions between an elderly man, who asked, "When did you get in, son?" and a recent arrival, who responded, "Just the day, big man, and no for long. And yersel?" "1952", came the reply. There was a daily procession of visitors, family and friends.
Not once, on either admission, did I hear anyone being challenged, or asked, to wash or sterilise their hands or not sit on the beds, nor was I ever savaged by a tie—the poor defenceless tie, around which now can be heard the clamour of indignant outrage as it is identified as the source of all infection. Ties, if worn, were tucked away within a coat or a jersey.
It seems to me that the most obvious action is the one that is least applied—washing or sterilising hands. In part, that seemed to me to be because there was no dragon enforcing the rule. I know that Conservatives have in the past called for matron, and I hope and believe that that has been for practical reasons and not just to fantasise about the swish of uniformed authority—I look over my shoulder, but no, she is not here. What is needed is a figure who has both the authority and confidence to bawl at anyone—patient, visitor, visiting politician, nurse, doctor or consultant—that they should wash or sterilise their hands and not sit on the beds. It appears that there are currently too many different chimney stacks of employee accountability and that in this grievance-rich age no one is able or prepared to take the risk of assuming overall command.
In saying all that, I accept that developments in medicine now keep us on the go until a greater age, often when hospitalised and with longer recovery times, and that our potential exposure in wards for longer and in a weakened state is a consequence of that. Therefore, when the BMA tells us that
"compliance with hand hygiene among professionals varies as a result of a lack of understanding of the associated risks and a lack of knowledge of the basic guidelines",
I cannot help but feel that there is considerable window dressing of a perfectly simple and straightforward concept: people should wash or sterilise their hands regularly and thoroughly. For hospital professionals, doing that and addressing the associated issues that Irene Oldfather raised should be as routine as is putting on a seatbelt for the driver of a car.
I have sympathy with the BMA's concern about inappropriate prescribing of antibiotics. I read its briefing on that subject and instantly recognised my mother, who—like Jamie Stone's mother—is a serial attendee of her local general practitioner, with an unshakeable belief that an antibiotic is the cure for all ills, from something genuinely serious to a blocked kitchen sink. There is a widespread belief that, even if an antibiotic is inappropriate, no harm can be done, yet those who prescribe them must know that harm is being done, as resistances are diminished. Again, public education is important, but the resolve of the medical profession in the face of what sometimes amounts to badgering is necessary, too.
In general, we believe the Government to be sincere in its objectives and we will support it today and will watch with interest the emerging outcomes. If the measures are successful, they will be a considerable achievement that will benefit the NHS hugely. I started by saying that common sense ought to be the rule but, as I have observed before, the problem with common sense is that it is not very common. The challenge for the Government is to make it so.
I hope that I have not made light of the subject. My sister-in-law—a mother of three in her 40s—is in the later stages of facing the cruel fate of the complications arising from untreatable breast cancer. Her journey has been made all the more stressful and grim by a hospital-acquired infection along the way. For that reason alone, I hope that the Government's announcements have a successful outcome.
My experience of being a hospital patient is relatively recent, as an accident and emergency admission within the NHS with what turned out to be a fairly routinely diagnosed complaint of gall stones one year and kidney stones the next. After treatment had helped alleviate the immediate discomfort, I found it fascinating just to watch. So much is made of the experience of patients by politicians that—admittedly, this is almost a perverse logic—it was almost a privilege to be a politician who was also the patient.
It was fascinating to watch the endless stream of individuals who strolled through the men's general surgical ward. There were committed public servants going about their business and there were patients and their families. The newspaper trolley man was astonished and unable to oblige when I requested The Herald—he ensured that the ward was made aware of the special delivery for "the professor" the next day to my bed in a window corner. There was the self-evident suspicion of fellow patients at the various baskets and bowls of spring bulbs that were delivered to the same corner—it was seemingly further evidence of, at the very least, some extravagant erudition.
There was the delight of the man opposite me, whose colostomy bag burst frequently in the night, or of the Irishman in the bed next to me, who did a runner because, as he confided to me, "The Southern general makes a much better job of drilling open a seized rear end." He was replaced by a young gentleman substantially the worse for wear after a Scotland match, whose excessively noisy comeuppance through the night was less than endearing. The hospital porters arrived, like buses, all at once—sometimes to ferry patients who had blocked a bed throughout the day and night for a routine X-ray, after which they could be discharged, but who as a result of lack of organisation lingered on, so other patients could not be admitted.
The staff—nurses, doctors, consultants, deliverers of meals and cleaning staff—were all doing their best, and the other patients were an on-going delight. There was the disembodied conversation heard over the partitions between an elderly man, who asked, "When did you get in, son?" and a recent arrival, who responded, "Just the day, big man, and no for long. And yersel?" "1952", came the reply. There was a daily procession of visitors, family and friends.
Not once, on either admission, did I hear anyone being challenged, or asked, to wash or sterilise their hands or not sit on the beds, nor was I ever savaged by a tie—the poor defenceless tie, around which now can be heard the clamour of indignant outrage as it is identified as the source of all infection. Ties, if worn, were tucked away within a coat or a jersey.
It seems to me that the most obvious action is the one that is least applied—washing or sterilising hands. In part, that seemed to me to be because there was no dragon enforcing the rule. I know that Conservatives have in the past called for matron, and I hope and believe that that has been for practical reasons and not just to fantasise about the swish of uniformed authority—I look over my shoulder, but no, she is not here. What is needed is a figure who has both the authority and confidence to bawl at anyone—patient, visitor, visiting politician, nurse, doctor or consultant—that they should wash or sterilise their hands and not sit on the beds. It appears that there are currently too many different chimney stacks of employee accountability and that in this grievance-rich age no one is able or prepared to take the risk of assuming overall command.
In saying all that, I accept that developments in medicine now keep us on the go until a greater age, often when hospitalised and with longer recovery times, and that our potential exposure in wards for longer and in a weakened state is a consequence of that. Therefore, when the BMA tells us that
"compliance with hand hygiene among professionals varies as a result of a lack of understanding of the associated risks and a lack of knowledge of the basic guidelines",
I cannot help but feel that there is considerable window dressing of a perfectly simple and straightforward concept: people should wash or sterilise their hands regularly and thoroughly. For hospital professionals, doing that and addressing the associated issues that Irene Oldfather raised should be as routine as is putting on a seatbelt for the driver of a car.
I have sympathy with the BMA's concern about inappropriate prescribing of antibiotics. I read its briefing on that subject and instantly recognised my mother, who—like Jamie Stone's mother—is a serial attendee of her local general practitioner, with an unshakeable belief that an antibiotic is the cure for all ills, from something genuinely serious to a blocked kitchen sink. There is a widespread belief that, even if an antibiotic is inappropriate, no harm can be done, yet those who prescribe them must know that harm is being done, as resistances are diminished. Again, public education is important, but the resolve of the medical profession in the face of what sometimes amounts to badgering is necessary, too.
In general, we believe the Government to be sincere in its objectives and we will support it today and will watch with interest the emerging outcomes. If the measures are successful, they will be a considerable achievement that will benefit the NHS hugely. I started by saying that common sense ought to be the rule but, as I have observed before, the problem with common sense is that it is not very common. The challenge for the Government is to make it so.
I hope that I have not made light of the subject. My sister-in-law—a mother of three in her 40s—is in the later stages of facing the cruel fate of the complications arising from untreatable breast cancer. Her journey has been made all the more stressful and grim by a hospital-acquired infection along the way. For that reason alone, I hope that the Government's announcements have a successful outcome.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1621, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on the health care associated infection task force.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon):
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate and to present our ambitious new plans for tackling health care associated infection in Scotland during the next three years ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I emphasise how much we in the Labour Party welcome the debate. We acknowledge that our amendment will be accepted. I associate myself with many of the point...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I hope that I can reassure Margaret Curran that the investment that we have set aside for the next three years is 260 per cent higher than the investment ove...
Margaret Curran:
Lab
I will take that—graciously, I hope—as an indication of the cabinet secretary's commitment. However, as I understand it, England has prioritised the issue, a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
It is always good to follow the gracious Margaret Curran. The Conservatives welcome the debate on health care associated infection. We also welcome the inves...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD):
LD
I do not discern—and I suspect that, by the end of the debate, I will not discern—any disagreement with the proposition that, because health care associated ...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am pleased to intervene on that very serious point. I hope that the member will take some reassurance from my pronunciation of "coherence" during my speech...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I am greatly comforted. We must maintain standards in the chamber.Health care associated infection is a serious issue, and I welcome the debate. Margaret Cur...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
We have heard a lot—and I am confident that we will hear a lot more as the debate progresses—about the virtues of cleanliness in preventing health care assoc...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I agree with Ross Finnie's suggestion that there is likely to be near unanimity on this vital issue. I welcome the cabinet secretary's announcements about th...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am always happy to consider lessons from elsewhere, and I appreciate Helen Eadie's point, but I remind her that I mentioned our policy, which I launched ea...
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I am sorry that the cabinet secretary feels aggrieved, but if she had been listening she would know that I congratulated the Government on its screening init...
Michael Matheson (Falkirk West) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing's statement. In the spirit of consensus, I acknowledge the work that the previous Labour and Liberal...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the commitment that the cabinet secretary has made and the opportunity that the debate gives us to consider how we can reduce the risk of contracti...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
This debate on dealing with health care associated infections is extremely important. However, I cannot help feeling sad that the reputation of a health serv...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in this afternoon's debate on health care associated infections. I endorse the cabinet secretary's announcement and, o...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
The cabinet secretary is to be congratulated on this initiative. As the Labour amendment states, the previous Government is to be commended for the establish...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
Many members have talked about consensus, but consensus does not make the debate any less important—we should debate such issues.The cabinet secretary mentio...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Rhoda Grant makes an important point. It may be of interest to her and other members to know that we are working with the trade unions on a national uniform ...
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
Yes. I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for that information. The BMA position shows that doctors have the will and wish to see the proposal progressed.W...
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
I agree with nearly everything that has been said in this worthwhile debate. The unanimity of the message will be encouraging to patients and health professi...
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
We welcome all that Nicola Sturgeon has said today in her speech and her interventions, including the MRSA pilot that she announced, in what has been a usefu...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab):
Lab
As all other members who have spoken have said, the debate has been consensual, informed and of a high standard. As Jamie Stone said, that should give comfor...
Nanette Milne:
Con
My point was that it does not matter who actually does the cleaning. What is important is the supervision of a high standard of cleaning.
Dr Simpson:
Lab
I hate to say this, but I could tell Nanette Milne numerous stories of when contract cleaners have come in, done their bit and gone away, leaving the questio...
The Minister for Public Health (Shona Robison):
SNP
I have listened with interest to this constructive, stimulating and wide-ranging debate, which has served as a stark reminder that the Scottish Government an...