Chamber
Plenary, 17 Jan 2008
17 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Firearms
I do not accept the member's point and I will explain why. He was confused about the fundamental difference that exists between air-guns and firearms.
It is often argued that firearms legislation affects only law-abiding citizens and that criminals will always manage to access weapons, whatever the legislation. That argument may have some validity when it is applied to weapons that use gunpowder, but it is unlikely to be valid for air-guns, most of which enter circulation when they are bought in the shops casually, on a whim.
Let us imagine that, disillusioned by the preference of the UK Government to seek conflict rather than co-operation, and by its refusal to legislate or to allow the Scottish Government to do so, I decided to change career and adopt a life of crime. If I then decided to obtain a weapon for criminal purposes, I would certainly opt for one that fired bullets. I would not seek to begin my life of crime with an air pistol, as somebody said in relation to east end gangsters; I would use a rather more dangerous and aggressive weapon. That is why there is a difference in the circulation of the two types of weapon, and why there is a difference in how we need to legislate.
The distinction between air weapons and other firearms is important. Some 58 per cent of the injuries that were caused by firearms in Scotland in the past year were inflicted by missiles that were propelled not by gunpowder but by air. In the past year, 54 per cent of all firearms offences—nearly 700 offences—involved an air weapon. To give an idea of what that represents on a local level, in the first six months of 2007 in Paisley alone, the police were aware of 20 air-gun incidents. That is perhaps not so surprising when one considers that there are an estimated half a million air-guns in circulation in Scotland.
Yet, even on air-guns—which are responsible, I remind members, for most weapons-related offences in Scotland—the Scottish Government cannot act. I applaud the cabinet secretary's decision to try and work with the UK Government and to request that the necessary authority be transferred to the Scottish Parliament. To say that I am deeply disappointed with the reply that was received from the Home Secretary would be to understate my views. Jacqui Smith, in her letter to the cabinet secretary, tells us that she does not support the transfer of firearms authority. She claims that such a move could result only in further complexity and militate against effective enforcement of the wide range of present controls. She says that the absence of border controls could make enforcement difficult and that organised criminals would not be slow to exploit any differences that might develop over time. That is, quite frankly, a rather silly argument. On the basis of her logic, Jacqui Smith could equally argue that the UK Westminster Government is not competent to legislate on firearms laws and that such legislation should, henceforth, become a reserved matter, with only the Parliament of the Republic of Ireland able to legislate on it. How else could the confusion that is predicted by the Home Secretary be avoided?
I shall explain why that ludicrous scenario follows from her argument. The border with the Republic of Ireland is uncontrolled and criminals can move freely between the two legislative areas. Jacqui Smith's logic would dictate that, if the UK does not surrender its right to legislate on firearms, there is a risk that that failure will be taken advantage of by criminal elements. Why should we stop there? Should firearms legislation not become, according to the logic of the UK Labour Government, a European Union competency? Border controls within the EU are limited or absent. Might not criminals take advantage of the different legislative regimes? Might not confusion arise?
The response from the UK Government amounts to playing politics with the safety of Scotland's people. That is shameful. There is no reason, other than the political posturing of Westminster, why Scotland should not legislate on firearms. Does Norway look to its bigger Scandinavian neighbour, Sweden, with whom it shares a lengthy and open border, for its firearms legislation? Do all the nations of Europe attempt to emulate their neighbours' firearms laws?
This is a public safety issue: air-guns are a significant cause of injury in Scotland and they are too widely held and too readily available. Scotland should and must have the legislative power to tackle abuse of air-guns. Therefore, I encourage the political parties that have not yet found the courage for independence and which are still frightened by the thought of running their own country to ask—when they go on their away days to London and are tugging their forelocks and humbly beseeching Westminster for scraps from its table—that firearms legislation, at least, be returned to Scotland, if the UK Government continues to obstruct legislation.
It is ludicrous that, while people still suffer injury in this country through misuse of air-guns, we in the Scottish Parliament cannot pass the legislation that is necessary to end the needless misery.
It is often argued that firearms legislation affects only law-abiding citizens and that criminals will always manage to access weapons, whatever the legislation. That argument may have some validity when it is applied to weapons that use gunpowder, but it is unlikely to be valid for air-guns, most of which enter circulation when they are bought in the shops casually, on a whim.
Let us imagine that, disillusioned by the preference of the UK Government to seek conflict rather than co-operation, and by its refusal to legislate or to allow the Scottish Government to do so, I decided to change career and adopt a life of crime. If I then decided to obtain a weapon for criminal purposes, I would certainly opt for one that fired bullets. I would not seek to begin my life of crime with an air pistol, as somebody said in relation to east end gangsters; I would use a rather more dangerous and aggressive weapon. That is why there is a difference in the circulation of the two types of weapon, and why there is a difference in how we need to legislate.
The distinction between air weapons and other firearms is important. Some 58 per cent of the injuries that were caused by firearms in Scotland in the past year were inflicted by missiles that were propelled not by gunpowder but by air. In the past year, 54 per cent of all firearms offences—nearly 700 offences—involved an air weapon. To give an idea of what that represents on a local level, in the first six months of 2007 in Paisley alone, the police were aware of 20 air-gun incidents. That is perhaps not so surprising when one considers that there are an estimated half a million air-guns in circulation in Scotland.
Yet, even on air-guns—which are responsible, I remind members, for most weapons-related offences in Scotland—the Scottish Government cannot act. I applaud the cabinet secretary's decision to try and work with the UK Government and to request that the necessary authority be transferred to the Scottish Parliament. To say that I am deeply disappointed with the reply that was received from the Home Secretary would be to understate my views. Jacqui Smith, in her letter to the cabinet secretary, tells us that she does not support the transfer of firearms authority. She claims that such a move could result only in further complexity and militate against effective enforcement of the wide range of present controls. She says that the absence of border controls could make enforcement difficult and that organised criminals would not be slow to exploit any differences that might develop over time. That is, quite frankly, a rather silly argument. On the basis of her logic, Jacqui Smith could equally argue that the UK Westminster Government is not competent to legislate on firearms laws and that such legislation should, henceforth, become a reserved matter, with only the Parliament of the Republic of Ireland able to legislate on it. How else could the confusion that is predicted by the Home Secretary be avoided?
I shall explain why that ludicrous scenario follows from her argument. The border with the Republic of Ireland is uncontrolled and criminals can move freely between the two legislative areas. Jacqui Smith's logic would dictate that, if the UK does not surrender its right to legislate on firearms, there is a risk that that failure will be taken advantage of by criminal elements. Why should we stop there? Should firearms legislation not become, according to the logic of the UK Labour Government, a European Union competency? Border controls within the EU are limited or absent. Might not criminals take advantage of the different legislative regimes? Might not confusion arise?
The response from the UK Government amounts to playing politics with the safety of Scotland's people. That is shameful. There is no reason, other than the political posturing of Westminster, why Scotland should not legislate on firearms. Does Norway look to its bigger Scandinavian neighbour, Sweden, with whom it shares a lengthy and open border, for its firearms legislation? Do all the nations of Europe attempt to emulate their neighbours' firearms laws?
This is a public safety issue: air-guns are a significant cause of injury in Scotland and they are too widely held and too readily available. Scotland should and must have the legislative power to tackle abuse of air-guns. Therefore, I encourage the political parties that have not yet found the courage for independence and which are still frightened by the thought of running their own country to ask—when they go on their away days to London and are tugging their forelocks and humbly beseeching Westminster for scraps from its table—that firearms legislation, at least, be returned to Scotland, if the UK Government continues to obstruct legislation.
It is ludicrous that, while people still suffer injury in this country through misuse of air-guns, we in the Scottish Parliament cannot pass the legislation that is necessary to end the needless misery.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1153, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on firearms.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
This debate is long overdue. The misuse of firearms, particularly air weapons, remains a major problem in our communities. There is a distinct problem in Sco...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I presume that the suggestion of hosting a summit has been well thought out and is not just a political stunt. If that is the case, will the minister explain...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We all know that various matters relating to the Post Office are reserved to Westminster, and they may be involved. I assure Mr Henry that we are dealing wit...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I am sure that members are glad that we are dealing with the issue seriously and looking to tackle the problems. My question extends the debate from air-guns...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Off the top of my head, I do not know. I presume that we might be able to do something through a licensing regime. I took a call on the point from the Greeno...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the cabinet secretary suggest that the current differentiation between the system for regulating firearms and that for shotguns is likely to end and tha...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We are having a summit to involve all those who have an interest—whether through sport or farming, or as police. We must have a system that is fit for purpos...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The strict control of firearms is essential if the public are to be kept safe from violence that involves guns. This afternoon, we will debate how to win the...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Labour's amendment refers to"retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom".There seems to be inconsistency in that Northern Ireland has a sep...
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The cabinet secretary is being a wee bit mischievous, as the character of the problem in Northern Ireland is clearly different. There has been generous suppo...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
A central question is whether all members agree that air-guns should be licensed. Does the Labour Party in Scotland support that position?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I will talk about the Labour Party's position and enlighten the member on that matter.We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further res...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The cabinet secretary was correct in stating that this is a serious issue that we must treat with the utmost seriousness. Much of what he said today was perf...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We accept the point that the law in itself is never a total solution to any problem. That applies in this case. However, does Bill Aitken accept—given that t...
Bill Aitken:
Con
All such ideas have varying degrees of merit. Once the appropriate inquiries have been carried out and consultations taken place, there could be a case for l...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I agree with the minister that there is increasing public concern about gun crime. In 2006-07, the Scottish police recorded 1,245 offences in which it was al...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Mike Pringle argues that legislation in Scotland that did not exist throughout the UK would be unenforceable. We would prefer UK-wide legislation, but if tha...
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is probably right, but I will come on to the considerable number of measures that have been introduced recently—we should give them time to bed in. If t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the open debate on the motion.
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I suggest that we should distinguish clearly between three kinds of weapons: the first are air-guns, the second I will call handguns, and an adequate descrip...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I rise in support of my colleague Pauline McNeill's amendment.Obviously, the safety of communities throughout Scotland is the most important subject that Par...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Pauline McNeill said that anyone who wants an air-gun should be able to demonstrate the purpose for which it is required. Does Bill Butler agree with us that...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You are in your final minute, Mr Butler.
Bill Butler:
Lab
We should have a system that operates across the UK and which militates against—Interruption. As Duncan McNeil said from a sedentary position, criminals do n...
Bill Wilson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one can deny that we have a problem with gun crime in Scotland. I will give two examples from the west of Scotland to follow the many cases that have alre...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
Will the member attempt to deal with the irony—some people might call it an enigma—that in respect of the pools of illegally held firearms and legally held f...
Bill Wilson:
SNP
I do not accept the member's point and I will explain why. He was confused about the fundamental difference that exists between air-guns and firearms.It is o...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
At a stroke, Bill Wilson has managed to destroy the efforts of Kenny MacAskill to develop a constructive argument about dealing with something on the basis o...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I made it quite clear that, as a member of the SNP, I think that this Parliament should legislate. The member is talking about 2005, when I was referring to ...