Chamber
Plenary, 17 Jan 2008
17 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Firearms
That is probably right, but I will come on to the considerable number of measures that have been introduced recently—we should give them time to bed in. If there is a summit between the Governments in Scotland and Westminster, I would welcome anything that is done to improve this aspect of the law.
The Liberal Democrats supported the new provisions. As Pauline McNeill said, the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 tightened the law on indiscriminate and reckless firing of air-guns from private property. It also brought in a further increase in the minimum age of ownership of air-guns from 17 years to 18 years, along with tougher restrictions on manufacture and ownership of imitation firearms.
That was followed by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007. The regulations were implemented only in October 2007, so surely time is required to establish whether they will be effective. The legislation did a number of things: it introduced a ban on the supply of realistic imitation firearms; it made it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic imitation firearms; and, under HM Revenue and Customs controls, made liable to forfeiture imported imitation firearms. It is now also an offence for a person under the age of 18 to purchase an imitation firearm, and to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of 18. I therefore suggest that much has been done and is being done to regulate firearms.
I am pleased that the motion recognises that there are legitimate reasons for owning a gun for all sorts of sporting activities, for control of vermin and for other reasons. All firearms in the United Kingdom must be licensed with either a firearms certificate or a shotgun certificate. It is not easy to obtain a firearms certificate, as several of my friends who live in Edinburgh know—they are constantly badgered by the police to ensure that their firearms certificates are up to date. The police must be convinced that the applicant is a person of sound reason and good standing, and that they can be trusted to own a gun without danger to public safety or to the peace. Under Home Office guidelines, a gun licence is issued only if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun. The penalties are quite harsh. Possession of a prohibited firearm without a certificate carries a mandatory five-year prison sentence and the fine is uncapped.
Guns can, of course, flow freely around the UK. A gun that is used in a crime in Edinburgh might next be used in Manchester or London, or vice versa. The evidence is that guns that are used in crimes are seldom recovered. So I agree with Bill AItken that we need to be more concerned about controlling illegal guns by preventing their getting into the UK in the first place—the Westminster Government is the Government to do that. My colleague at Westminster, Chris Huhne, is exercised by the issue and has suggested—as Bill Aitken did—that we should have a border police force that would exercise more control over the import of illegal weapons and guns into the UK.
The Liberal Democrats will support the Labour amendment.
The Liberal Democrats supported the new provisions. As Pauline McNeill said, the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 tightened the law on indiscriminate and reckless firing of air-guns from private property. It also brought in a further increase in the minimum age of ownership of air-guns from 17 years to 18 years, along with tougher restrictions on manufacture and ownership of imitation firearms.
That was followed by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007. The regulations were implemented only in October 2007, so surely time is required to establish whether they will be effective. The legislation did a number of things: it introduced a ban on the supply of realistic imitation firearms; it made it an offence to manufacture, import or sell realistic imitation firearms; and, under HM Revenue and Customs controls, made liable to forfeiture imported imitation firearms. It is now also an offence for a person under the age of 18 to purchase an imitation firearm, and to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of 18. I therefore suggest that much has been done and is being done to regulate firearms.
I am pleased that the motion recognises that there are legitimate reasons for owning a gun for all sorts of sporting activities, for control of vermin and for other reasons. All firearms in the United Kingdom must be licensed with either a firearms certificate or a shotgun certificate. It is not easy to obtain a firearms certificate, as several of my friends who live in Edinburgh know—they are constantly badgered by the police to ensure that their firearms certificates are up to date. The police must be convinced that the applicant is a person of sound reason and good standing, and that they can be trusted to own a gun without danger to public safety or to the peace. Under Home Office guidelines, a gun licence is issued only if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun. The penalties are quite harsh. Possession of a prohibited firearm without a certificate carries a mandatory five-year prison sentence and the fine is uncapped.
Guns can, of course, flow freely around the UK. A gun that is used in a crime in Edinburgh might next be used in Manchester or London, or vice versa. The evidence is that guns that are used in crimes are seldom recovered. So I agree with Bill AItken that we need to be more concerned about controlling illegal guns by preventing their getting into the UK in the first place—the Westminster Government is the Government to do that. My colleague at Westminster, Chris Huhne, is exercised by the issue and has suggested—as Bill Aitken did—that we should have a border police force that would exercise more control over the import of illegal weapons and guns into the UK.
The Liberal Democrats will support the Labour amendment.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1153, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on firearms.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
This debate is long overdue. The misuse of firearms, particularly air weapons, remains a major problem in our communities. There is a distinct problem in Sco...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I presume that the suggestion of hosting a summit has been well thought out and is not just a political stunt. If that is the case, will the minister explain...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We all know that various matters relating to the Post Office are reserved to Westminster, and they may be involved. I assure Mr Henry that we are dealing wit...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I am sure that members are glad that we are dealing with the issue seriously and looking to tackle the problems. My question extends the debate from air-guns...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Off the top of my head, I do not know. I presume that we might be able to do something through a licensing regime. I took a call on the point from the Greeno...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the cabinet secretary suggest that the current differentiation between the system for regulating firearms and that for shotguns is likely to end and tha...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We are having a summit to involve all those who have an interest—whether through sport or farming, or as police. We must have a system that is fit for purpos...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The strict control of firearms is essential if the public are to be kept safe from violence that involves guns. This afternoon, we will debate how to win the...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Labour's amendment refers to"retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom".There seems to be inconsistency in that Northern Ireland has a sep...
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The cabinet secretary is being a wee bit mischievous, as the character of the problem in Northern Ireland is clearly different. There has been generous suppo...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
A central question is whether all members agree that air-guns should be licensed. Does the Labour Party in Scotland support that position?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I will talk about the Labour Party's position and enlighten the member on that matter.We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further res...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The cabinet secretary was correct in stating that this is a serious issue that we must treat with the utmost seriousness. Much of what he said today was perf...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We accept the point that the law in itself is never a total solution to any problem. That applies in this case. However, does Bill Aitken accept—given that t...
Bill Aitken:
Con
All such ideas have varying degrees of merit. Once the appropriate inquiries have been carried out and consultations taken place, there could be a case for l...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I agree with the minister that there is increasing public concern about gun crime. In 2006-07, the Scottish police recorded 1,245 offences in which it was al...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Mike Pringle argues that legislation in Scotland that did not exist throughout the UK would be unenforceable. We would prefer UK-wide legislation, but if tha...
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is probably right, but I will come on to the considerable number of measures that have been introduced recently—we should give them time to bed in. If t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the open debate on the motion.
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I suggest that we should distinguish clearly between three kinds of weapons: the first are air-guns, the second I will call handguns, and an adequate descrip...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I rise in support of my colleague Pauline McNeill's amendment.Obviously, the safety of communities throughout Scotland is the most important subject that Par...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Pauline McNeill said that anyone who wants an air-gun should be able to demonstrate the purpose for which it is required. Does Bill Butler agree with us that...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You are in your final minute, Mr Butler.
Bill Butler:
Lab
We should have a system that operates across the UK and which militates against—Interruption. As Duncan McNeil said from a sedentary position, criminals do n...
Bill Wilson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one can deny that we have a problem with gun crime in Scotland. I will give two examples from the west of Scotland to follow the many cases that have alre...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
Will the member attempt to deal with the irony—some people might call it an enigma—that in respect of the pools of illegally held firearms and legally held f...
Bill Wilson:
SNP
I do not accept the member's point and I will explain why. He was confused about the fundamental difference that exists between air-guns and firearms.It is o...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
At a stroke, Bill Wilson has managed to destroy the efforts of Kenny MacAskill to develop a constructive argument about dealing with something on the basis o...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I made it quite clear that, as a member of the SNP, I think that this Parliament should legislate. The member is talking about 2005, when I was referring to ...