Chamber
Plenary, 17 Jan 2008
17 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Firearms
I will talk about the Labour Party's position and enlighten the member on that matter.
We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further restrictions and how they would be enforced. We also need to consider the fact that the police have warned us against such an approach, and we must talk to the police about their view on the matter.
On the face of it, it is hard to justify why anyone living in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen or any urban area in the UK should ever need to use or have access to a gun or an air-gun. However, where we part company with the SNP on the issue is that we do not believe that it is desirable to have completely separate firearms legislation in Scotland. There are risks in that, as the Home Secretary argues, and it would not be beyond the wit of criminals to obtain an air-gun over the border if Scotland acted alone.
Labour in Scotland believes that the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Justice should review the operation of the legislation with a view to imposing further restrictions throughout the UK—action that would perhaps be better described as a presumption against the ownership of guns rather than a ban, as there will always be genuine exemptions for those who have a genuine justification. Anyone who owns an air-gun should be able to justify why that is necessary.
Our amendment allows consideration of what has been done already to restrict the use of air-guns. However, as Duncan McNeil pointed out, it could also allow a focus on other guns such as BB guns, which also cause damage in our communities. Our amendment argues that it may be necessary to complete our work with further restrictions, including consideration of the ownership of air-guns, and Labour will continue to argue that position with the Home Office. Today, I have written to Jacqui Smith and Jack Straw, outlining my view on the matter as Labour's spokesperson on justice.
We must recognise that, invariably, other issues will underlie gun misuse and that a total ban on all guns would not remove them completely from circulation. In that respect, the Tory amendment makes the valid point that banning anything—be it guns or weapons—will not necessarily make the problem go away. Our poorest-resourced communities live with the threat of violence, the scourge of drug dealing and the use of illegal firearms and weapons of all sorts. The issue is about dealing with the lives of innocent people who deserve safer communities.
That is our position, and we will work constructively with the Government. However, we think that, in the first instance, the Scottish Government must argue the case with the UK ministers to get a sensible approach to the control of guns in the UK and in Scotland.
I move amendment S3M-1153.2, to leave out from "gun crime" to end and insert:
"the unacceptable incidence of gun crime and in particular the illegal misuse of air weapons across Scotland; welcomes the actions of the previous Scottish Executive, working with the UK Home Office, to restrict the sale of airguns and increase the age at which an airgun can be obtained; notes that there is a case for reviewing the effect of these provisions with a view to implementing further restrictions on the ownership of airguns other than for recognised and legitimate occupational and sporting interests; but further believes that improved firearm legislation would be best obtained by retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom, and therefore calls on Scottish ministers to engage constructively with the UK Government to better control and reduce serious and violent crime in Scotland."
We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further restrictions and how they would be enforced. We also need to consider the fact that the police have warned us against such an approach, and we must talk to the police about their view on the matter.
On the face of it, it is hard to justify why anyone living in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen or any urban area in the UK should ever need to use or have access to a gun or an air-gun. However, where we part company with the SNP on the issue is that we do not believe that it is desirable to have completely separate firearms legislation in Scotland. There are risks in that, as the Home Secretary argues, and it would not be beyond the wit of criminals to obtain an air-gun over the border if Scotland acted alone.
Labour in Scotland believes that the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Justice should review the operation of the legislation with a view to imposing further restrictions throughout the UK—action that would perhaps be better described as a presumption against the ownership of guns rather than a ban, as there will always be genuine exemptions for those who have a genuine justification. Anyone who owns an air-gun should be able to justify why that is necessary.
Our amendment allows consideration of what has been done already to restrict the use of air-guns. However, as Duncan McNeil pointed out, it could also allow a focus on other guns such as BB guns, which also cause damage in our communities. Our amendment argues that it may be necessary to complete our work with further restrictions, including consideration of the ownership of air-guns, and Labour will continue to argue that position with the Home Office. Today, I have written to Jacqui Smith and Jack Straw, outlining my view on the matter as Labour's spokesperson on justice.
We must recognise that, invariably, other issues will underlie gun misuse and that a total ban on all guns would not remove them completely from circulation. In that respect, the Tory amendment makes the valid point that banning anything—be it guns or weapons—will not necessarily make the problem go away. Our poorest-resourced communities live with the threat of violence, the scourge of drug dealing and the use of illegal firearms and weapons of all sorts. The issue is about dealing with the lives of innocent people who deserve safer communities.
That is our position, and we will work constructively with the Government. However, we think that, in the first instance, the Scottish Government must argue the case with the UK ministers to get a sensible approach to the control of guns in the UK and in Scotland.
I move amendment S3M-1153.2, to leave out from "gun crime" to end and insert:
"the unacceptable incidence of gun crime and in particular the illegal misuse of air weapons across Scotland; welcomes the actions of the previous Scottish Executive, working with the UK Home Office, to restrict the sale of airguns and increase the age at which an airgun can be obtained; notes that there is a case for reviewing the effect of these provisions with a view to implementing further restrictions on the ownership of airguns other than for recognised and legitimate occupational and sporting interests; but further believes that improved firearm legislation would be best obtained by retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom, and therefore calls on Scottish ministers to engage constructively with the UK Government to better control and reduce serious and violent crime in Scotland."
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1153, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on firearms.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
This debate is long overdue. The misuse of firearms, particularly air weapons, remains a major problem in our communities. There is a distinct problem in Sco...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I presume that the suggestion of hosting a summit has been well thought out and is not just a political stunt. If that is the case, will the minister explain...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We all know that various matters relating to the Post Office are reserved to Westminster, and they may be involved. I assure Mr Henry that we are dealing wit...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
I am sure that members are glad that we are dealing with the issue seriously and looking to tackle the problems. My question extends the debate from air-guns...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Off the top of my head, I do not know. I presume that we might be able to do something through a licensing regime. I took a call on the point from the Greeno...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the cabinet secretary suggest that the current differentiation between the system for regulating firearms and that for shotguns is likely to end and tha...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We are having a summit to involve all those who have an interest—whether through sport or farming, or as police. We must have a system that is fit for purpos...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The strict control of firearms is essential if the public are to be kept safe from violence that involves guns. This afternoon, we will debate how to win the...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
Labour's amendment refers to"retaining consistency across all parts of the United Kingdom".There seems to be inconsistency in that Northern Ireland has a sep...
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The cabinet secretary is being a wee bit mischievous, as the character of the problem in Northern Ireland is clearly different. There has been generous suppo...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing):
SNP
A central question is whether all members agree that air-guns should be licensed. Does the Labour Party in Scotland support that position?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I will talk about the Labour Party's position and enlighten the member on that matter.We need to look in greater detail at the workability of any further res...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The cabinet secretary was correct in stating that this is a serious issue that we must treat with the utmost seriousness. Much of what he said today was perf...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We accept the point that the law in itself is never a total solution to any problem. That applies in this case. However, does Bill Aitken accept—given that t...
Bill Aitken:
Con
All such ideas have varying degrees of merit. Once the appropriate inquiries have been carried out and consultations taken place, there could be a case for l...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I agree with the minister that there is increasing public concern about gun crime. In 2006-07, the Scottish police recorded 1,245 offences in which it was al...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Mike Pringle argues that legislation in Scotland that did not exist throughout the UK would be unenforceable. We would prefer UK-wide legislation, but if tha...
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is probably right, but I will come on to the considerable number of measures that have been introduced recently—we should give them time to bed in. If t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to the open debate on the motion.
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I suggest that we should distinguish clearly between three kinds of weapons: the first are air-guns, the second I will call handguns, and an adequate descrip...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I rise in support of my colleague Pauline McNeill's amendment.Obviously, the safety of communities throughout Scotland is the most important subject that Par...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Pauline McNeill said that anyone who wants an air-gun should be able to demonstrate the purpose for which it is required. Does Bill Butler agree with us that...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You are in your final minute, Mr Butler.
Bill Butler:
Lab
We should have a system that operates across the UK and which militates against—Interruption. As Duncan McNeil said from a sedentary position, criminals do n...
Bill Wilson (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one can deny that we have a problem with gun crime in Scotland. I will give two examples from the west of Scotland to follow the many cases that have alre...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
Will the member attempt to deal with the irony—some people might call it an enigma—that in respect of the pools of illegally held firearms and legally held f...
Bill Wilson:
SNP
I do not accept the member's point and I will explain why. He was confused about the fundamental difference that exists between air-guns and firearms.It is o...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
At a stroke, Bill Wilson has managed to destroy the efforts of Kenny MacAskill to develop a constructive argument about dealing with something on the basis o...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I made it quite clear that, as a member of the SNP, I think that this Parliament should legislate. The member is talking about 2005, when I was referring to ...