Chamber
Plenary, 09 Jan 2008
09 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Organised Crime
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem. I agree with the minister, Margaret Smith, Pauline McNeill and others when they say that organised crime is now an international business. It is still a serious issue in Scotland. There are examples of it everywhere and many businesses suffer.
Stuart McMillan rightly focused on the taxi trade. I remember well a private hire firm that was run by a criminal element. It took a huge concentrated effort by councillors—I was one of them—the licensing committee, officials and police to bring that firm to book, but that did not happen before the taxi office in Edinburgh had burned to the ground and the police officers involved had been threatened and intimidated. At the end of the day, the council won and that firm was put out of business. That is an example of how we can get rid of some organised criminals.
If members speak to property developers, many will tell them that, in some areas, site protection money is still a serious concern. More harrowing still is the fact that Scotland's drug trade remains a multimillion pound business. That said, our uniformed organisations and judiciary have taken massive steps forward in recent years. More than £6 million was seized under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in the last year alone, £3 million of which is set to be reinvested in community projects—I will return to that point. That figure has risen year on year since the 2002 act was passed, under the previous Executive.
As my colleague Margaret Smith said, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency has gone from strength to strength, performing an important co-ordination and intervention role. Like others, including Pauline McNeill, Bill Aitken and Margaret Curran, I will take a moment to acknowledge the personal contribution that has been made to the agency by Graeme Pearson, the first director of the SCDEA. During his time at the agency, he transformed the organisation to make it more like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with a remit to tackle all organised crime across Scotland and to liaise with British and many other international police forces and other agencies. Under him, the agency had great success in tackling crime. In 2005 to 2007, £30 million-worth of drugs were seized and, between 2004 and 2007, more than £23 million-worth of assets. I welcome the appointment of Gordon Meldrum as director general of the SCDEA from 1 January. I wish him well in his new job, and I know that he will have the co-operation of us all.
Pauline McNeill was absolutely right to say that the best way to hit criminals is in their pockets. That will help to stop people going into crime. I very much welcome the minister's commitment to consider more ways to hit the criminals where it hurts most—their assets.
I return to the money that is raised by the seizure of assets. Those funds have been reinvested in six local authorities, including Edinburgh, and councils have been able to target the extra funds. In Edinburgh's case, the money has been spent mainly on young people. For example, £750,000 has been focused on a youth services strategy. The Go4it/open all hours scheme gives young people the opportunity during the summer, Easter and October holidays to try a range of sports activities using the council's sport and leisure facilities, and there are other examples including sports programmes for young people in Muirhouse and Holyrood. Those are good examples of how money that is seized is being used positively.
It is clear that the battle is not yet won. Indeed, the Parliament could do more. Our uniformed organisations and judiciary see the effects of organised crime every day. They know where the problems are and where it would be best to target resources. It is a matter of ensuring that they have every tool at their disposal. We believe that more officers and more resources are required. Having 1,000 extra police, which was promised in the Government's manifesto, would be a good start.
Any plans for centralisation must be resisted. Calls have been made in some quarters for the expansion of the scope of the Scottish Police Services Authority, but that organisation has rightly been labelled by the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, Colin McKerracher, as "a fledgling organisation". The SPSA is simply not ready to take on more responsibility. As the Government has pledged to cut bureaucracy, the authority should take heed of the case of the former deputy chief constable of Strathclyde Police, Ricky Gray, who took early retirement as he was fed up fighting with civil servants and was concerned about the accountability of the SPSA quango.
There are areas in which more must be done. For example, the serious organised crime task force, to which members have referred, has real potential for further interaction with organisations outside the UK to stop the flow of drugs into the country. Generally, however, we are moving in the right direction. The crux is that the structure that we have in place has statistically proven more and more effective year on year. A rethink, at this stage, is not required.
I agree with Bill Aitken that all of us—including us in the Parliament and Gordon Meldrum—must do more. I am confident that that is everybody's aim. The Government's motion might best be described as uncontroversial; it is a strong statement of intent without any indication of far-reaching changes. In some respects I welcome that, given the widespread progress that is being made. What is required is not tinkering, but support for organisations that are performing well.
Perhaps it is too much to hope that Mr MacAskill, in his closing remarks—I am sorry; I had thought that Mr MacAskill would close the debate, but I have learned otherwise. Instead, I should refer to what we very much hope to hear in the Lord Advocate's closing remarks. I am not sure, however, that any commitment to new police officers is likely to be forthcoming in that speech. I say to the SNP that, if we want to win the battle with organised crime, we need more resources on the front line. That means more police officers. I support the motion and both the amendments.
Stuart McMillan rightly focused on the taxi trade. I remember well a private hire firm that was run by a criminal element. It took a huge concentrated effort by councillors—I was one of them—the licensing committee, officials and police to bring that firm to book, but that did not happen before the taxi office in Edinburgh had burned to the ground and the police officers involved had been threatened and intimidated. At the end of the day, the council won and that firm was put out of business. That is an example of how we can get rid of some organised criminals.
If members speak to property developers, many will tell them that, in some areas, site protection money is still a serious concern. More harrowing still is the fact that Scotland's drug trade remains a multimillion pound business. That said, our uniformed organisations and judiciary have taken massive steps forward in recent years. More than £6 million was seized under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in the last year alone, £3 million of which is set to be reinvested in community projects—I will return to that point. That figure has risen year on year since the 2002 act was passed, under the previous Executive.
As my colleague Margaret Smith said, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency has gone from strength to strength, performing an important co-ordination and intervention role. Like others, including Pauline McNeill, Bill Aitken and Margaret Curran, I will take a moment to acknowledge the personal contribution that has been made to the agency by Graeme Pearson, the first director of the SCDEA. During his time at the agency, he transformed the organisation to make it more like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with a remit to tackle all organised crime across Scotland and to liaise with British and many other international police forces and other agencies. Under him, the agency had great success in tackling crime. In 2005 to 2007, £30 million-worth of drugs were seized and, between 2004 and 2007, more than £23 million-worth of assets. I welcome the appointment of Gordon Meldrum as director general of the SCDEA from 1 January. I wish him well in his new job, and I know that he will have the co-operation of us all.
Pauline McNeill was absolutely right to say that the best way to hit criminals is in their pockets. That will help to stop people going into crime. I very much welcome the minister's commitment to consider more ways to hit the criminals where it hurts most—their assets.
I return to the money that is raised by the seizure of assets. Those funds have been reinvested in six local authorities, including Edinburgh, and councils have been able to target the extra funds. In Edinburgh's case, the money has been spent mainly on young people. For example, £750,000 has been focused on a youth services strategy. The Go4it/open all hours scheme gives young people the opportunity during the summer, Easter and October holidays to try a range of sports activities using the council's sport and leisure facilities, and there are other examples including sports programmes for young people in Muirhouse and Holyrood. Those are good examples of how money that is seized is being used positively.
It is clear that the battle is not yet won. Indeed, the Parliament could do more. Our uniformed organisations and judiciary see the effects of organised crime every day. They know where the problems are and where it would be best to target resources. It is a matter of ensuring that they have every tool at their disposal. We believe that more officers and more resources are required. Having 1,000 extra police, which was promised in the Government's manifesto, would be a good start.
Any plans for centralisation must be resisted. Calls have been made in some quarters for the expansion of the scope of the Scottish Police Services Authority, but that organisation has rightly been labelled by the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, Colin McKerracher, as "a fledgling organisation". The SPSA is simply not ready to take on more responsibility. As the Government has pledged to cut bureaucracy, the authority should take heed of the case of the former deputy chief constable of Strathclyde Police, Ricky Gray, who took early retirement as he was fed up fighting with civil servants and was concerned about the accountability of the SPSA quango.
There are areas in which more must be done. For example, the serious organised crime task force, to which members have referred, has real potential for further interaction with organisations outside the UK to stop the flow of drugs into the country. Generally, however, we are moving in the right direction. The crux is that the structure that we have in place has statistically proven more and more effective year on year. A rethink, at this stage, is not required.
I agree with Bill Aitken that all of us—including us in the Parliament and Gordon Meldrum—must do more. I am confident that that is everybody's aim. The Government's motion might best be described as uncontroversial; it is a strong statement of intent without any indication of far-reaching changes. In some respects I welcome that, given the widespread progress that is being made. What is required is not tinkering, but support for organisations that are performing well.
Perhaps it is too much to hope that Mr MacAskill, in his closing remarks—I am sorry; I had thought that Mr MacAskill would close the debate, but I have learned otherwise. Instead, I should refer to what we very much hope to hear in the Lord Advocate's closing remarks. I am not sure, however, that any commitment to new police officers is likely to be forthcoming in that speech. I say to the SNP that, if we want to win the battle with organised crime, we need more resources on the front line. That means more police officers. I support the motion and both the amendments.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1101, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on serious organised crime.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the major threats facing Scotland today: serious organised crime. Organised crime impacts on us all. For too long...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
In his letter to the Home Secretary, has the minister referred to the possibility of Scotland retaining all the money that it gets under the 2002 act? I unde...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
My understanding is that the figure is 50 per cent above £17 million per annum. We are obviously happy to discuss the matter. That particular aspect was not ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I very much appreciate what the minister has just said, but what will be done differently to persuade young people that there is another way—other than joini...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The member and I have touched on such matters at hustings and on other occasions. She is aware that some matters are outwith the justice department's silo. T...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
On the effectiveness of Europol in helping to prevent crime in Scotland, is the minister satisfied that the intelligence that he receives from Europol regard...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I believe so. I met the director general of Europol. I am not aware of any evidence from police officers or organisations in Scotland that appropriate inform...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to see that, in 2008, our weekly discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will continue. I welcome this debate on serious organised cr...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
The member referred to long sentences for serious criminals. Does she see that being balanced by shorter sentences for less serious crimes?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them o...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the debate. As Pauline McNeill said, this is the first week back, so we have the first justice debate, and another is due next week. I also welcome...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secre...
Mike Pringle:
LD
One problem is that often the Mercedes or house is owned not by the drug dealer but by his wife or son. What do we do about that? How do we address that prob...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Mr Pringle highlights what is undoubtedly a real problem, but at some stage the house will have been part of a transaction. In many instances, the house will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
You should begin to wind up now.
Bill Aitken:
Con
The Mr Bigs of the criminal world need to know that we are after their houses—whether in Spain or in posh areas of Glasgow—and that we are after their cars.I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes.
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Serious organised crime is one of the most difficult issues before our Parliament because it goes right to the basis of our civil society.I begin by going ba...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowle...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I start by saying that I am rather disappointed in the Lib Dem amendment. It does them no favours and it belittles the debate, which is about a very serious ...
Margaret Smith:
LD
In my speech I sought to remind Sandra White and others that in the fight against serious organised crime there is a role not only for specialists but for th...
Sandra White:
SNP
I do not want to know about the Liberal Democrats' manifesto commitments, some of which certainly have not been taken forward. That said, I take the member's...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support the motion and the amendments. I have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting Margaret Smith's amendment. Indeed, I am very pleased with her amendme...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the debate. I also welcome the Scottish Government's creation of the serious organised crime task force.As each member who has spoken thus far has ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate giv...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I have great pleasure in speaking in the debate because, unlike the subjects of other debates, serious organised crime in Scotland is an issue that resonates...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem....
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
The debate has been useful as it has allowed us to consider the issues connected with serious crime and how we might tackle it. There is much in the Governme...
Bill Butler:
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?