Chamber
Plenary, 09 Jan 2008
09 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Organised Crime
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowledged that much of the work of the previous Labour-led Executive on initiatives and legislative reform in the justice portfolio was sensible and should be built on. I said then that such an approach by Mr MacAskill and his ministerial colleague Mr Ewing would have the Labour Party's support, because when the Government's policies demonstrably assist the development of a safer, stronger Scotland, they deserve to be supported.
The terms of today's Government motion are sound, as it acknowledges the work of previous Administrations, the progress that has been made and the major challenges that, as Bill Aitken and Margaret Smith said, still lie ahead. All of us agree on those points.
In the debate last June, the cabinet secretary stated:
"Organised crime causes misery to the people of Scotland."
That is a truism, and the cabinet secretary was absolutely correct. He made clear that the Government intended
"to pursue organised crime with vigour and with a vengeance."—[Official Report, 6 June 2007; c 407.]
That was the Labour Party's view when it was in government, and I dare say that all parties represented in the chamber will continue to support the Administration as long as it maintains that approach.
Tackling serious organised crime is central to the shared aim of members from all parties of creating a safer Scotland in which communities are not bedevilled by drug dealing, prostitution, money laundering and small arms trading. It is up to the Parliament, acting in a co-ordinated fashion with both our Westminster counterparts and European agencies, to ensure that the police and law enforcement agencies are properly equipped to deal with an increasingly sophisticated international underworld.
Organised criminal gangs are, in effect, illegitimate businesses that exist for the sole purpose of making large sums of money. They are prepared to go to any lengths, up to and including corruption, intimidation and extreme violence, to protect their rackets and ensure that they thrive and prosper.
We know that such gangs have adopted an increasingly elaborate system of measures, including counter-surveillance techniques and intricate money-laundering arrangements, to protect their investments, as referred to in the previous speech. Therefore, it is right and proper that the Government provides our police and law enforcement agencies with the resources and legislative framework to allow them to deal effectively with such organised criminal gangs in order to prevent the squalor, despair and death that gangsters cause in our communities.
Take drugs, for example. Drug trafficking, as members are aware, causes serious problems in communities throughout Scotland. It is estimated that the UK's crack and heroin market grosses over £3 billion a year. Many of the people who become addicted to drugs turn to crime to pay for their habit. In effect, every pound that is spent on heroin results in an estimated £4 in economic and social costs. Of course, the cost in misery for communities and for the addicted individuals trapped in that twilight world is incalculable.
Serious organised crime is corrosive. It eats away at the very fabric of our society. Mr MacAskill called it a cancer and he is right. That is why previous Holyrood Governments were correct to work with Westminster to disrupt serious organised crime and bring those behind it to justice. It was proper for Labour to propose the setting up of the SCDEA and members in the previous session of Parliament were right to support its establishment in May 2006.
The establishment of the SCDEA on 1 April 2006 was also crucial in ensuring effective co-operation between law enforcement agencies at UK level. Indeed, much of the success of the SCDEA and the police in tackling serious organised crime has been a result of their ability to co-operate effectively with other law enforcement agencies throughout the UK and around the world. The Serious Organised Crime Agency has enhanced the capability of Scotland and the UK to respond to international crime. The continuing successful employment of the powers that are available under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 is due in no small measure to such co-operation. The Lord Advocate announced the good news in October that, in the past six months of this financial year, £2 million was secured from criminals. That is why I welcome the recent establishment of the serious organised crime task force, which is a sound, if unspectacular, initiative.
The Government needs to consider going further still. I note that Mr MacAskill said that the Government will introduce proposals on serious organised crime. I have a proposal for the Government. Labour's manifesto at the recent election included a commitment to place before the Parliament a serious and organised crime bill. It was envisaged that such a bill would introduce a range of new powers that would be fashioned to make it easier to fight crime both across the border with England and internationally. The provisions of such a bill would include serious crime prevention orders, targeted at organised criminals and the markets in which they operate, and powers to allow public bodies to share information with anti-fraud organisations to help to spot activity and individuals linked to suspected fraud. Those and other elements of such a bill merit consideration. Given that it is probable that one of the law officers will sum up, I will write to the cabinet secretary to ask him for his views and those of his Government on the proposal to put a specific serious and organised crime bill before the Parliament.
After all, we all want to do whatever is practical to counter the threat that is posed by serious organised crime to the vital interests of the people whom we represent. For that to happen, we need all parties, including the governing party, to be ready to co-operate and adopt ideas that have merit. Our communities, quite correctly, demand no less of the Parliament.
The terms of today's Government motion are sound, as it acknowledges the work of previous Administrations, the progress that has been made and the major challenges that, as Bill Aitken and Margaret Smith said, still lie ahead. All of us agree on those points.
In the debate last June, the cabinet secretary stated:
"Organised crime causes misery to the people of Scotland."
That is a truism, and the cabinet secretary was absolutely correct. He made clear that the Government intended
"to pursue organised crime with vigour and with a vengeance."—[Official Report, 6 June 2007; c 407.]
That was the Labour Party's view when it was in government, and I dare say that all parties represented in the chamber will continue to support the Administration as long as it maintains that approach.
Tackling serious organised crime is central to the shared aim of members from all parties of creating a safer Scotland in which communities are not bedevilled by drug dealing, prostitution, money laundering and small arms trading. It is up to the Parliament, acting in a co-ordinated fashion with both our Westminster counterparts and European agencies, to ensure that the police and law enforcement agencies are properly equipped to deal with an increasingly sophisticated international underworld.
Organised criminal gangs are, in effect, illegitimate businesses that exist for the sole purpose of making large sums of money. They are prepared to go to any lengths, up to and including corruption, intimidation and extreme violence, to protect their rackets and ensure that they thrive and prosper.
We know that such gangs have adopted an increasingly elaborate system of measures, including counter-surveillance techniques and intricate money-laundering arrangements, to protect their investments, as referred to in the previous speech. Therefore, it is right and proper that the Government provides our police and law enforcement agencies with the resources and legislative framework to allow them to deal effectively with such organised criminal gangs in order to prevent the squalor, despair and death that gangsters cause in our communities.
Take drugs, for example. Drug trafficking, as members are aware, causes serious problems in communities throughout Scotland. It is estimated that the UK's crack and heroin market grosses over £3 billion a year. Many of the people who become addicted to drugs turn to crime to pay for their habit. In effect, every pound that is spent on heroin results in an estimated £4 in economic and social costs. Of course, the cost in misery for communities and for the addicted individuals trapped in that twilight world is incalculable.
Serious organised crime is corrosive. It eats away at the very fabric of our society. Mr MacAskill called it a cancer and he is right. That is why previous Holyrood Governments were correct to work with Westminster to disrupt serious organised crime and bring those behind it to justice. It was proper for Labour to propose the setting up of the SCDEA and members in the previous session of Parliament were right to support its establishment in May 2006.
The establishment of the SCDEA on 1 April 2006 was also crucial in ensuring effective co-operation between law enforcement agencies at UK level. Indeed, much of the success of the SCDEA and the police in tackling serious organised crime has been a result of their ability to co-operate effectively with other law enforcement agencies throughout the UK and around the world. The Serious Organised Crime Agency has enhanced the capability of Scotland and the UK to respond to international crime. The continuing successful employment of the powers that are available under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 is due in no small measure to such co-operation. The Lord Advocate announced the good news in October that, in the past six months of this financial year, £2 million was secured from criminals. That is why I welcome the recent establishment of the serious organised crime task force, which is a sound, if unspectacular, initiative.
The Government needs to consider going further still. I note that Mr MacAskill said that the Government will introduce proposals on serious organised crime. I have a proposal for the Government. Labour's manifesto at the recent election included a commitment to place before the Parliament a serious and organised crime bill. It was envisaged that such a bill would introduce a range of new powers that would be fashioned to make it easier to fight crime both across the border with England and internationally. The provisions of such a bill would include serious crime prevention orders, targeted at organised criminals and the markets in which they operate, and powers to allow public bodies to share information with anti-fraud organisations to help to spot activity and individuals linked to suspected fraud. Those and other elements of such a bill merit consideration. Given that it is probable that one of the law officers will sum up, I will write to the cabinet secretary to ask him for his views and those of his Government on the proposal to put a specific serious and organised crime bill before the Parliament.
After all, we all want to do whatever is practical to counter the threat that is posed by serious organised crime to the vital interests of the people whom we represent. For that to happen, we need all parties, including the governing party, to be ready to co-operate and adopt ideas that have merit. Our communities, quite correctly, demand no less of the Parliament.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1101, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on serious organised crime.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the major threats facing Scotland today: serious organised crime. Organised crime impacts on us all. For too long...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
In his letter to the Home Secretary, has the minister referred to the possibility of Scotland retaining all the money that it gets under the 2002 act? I unde...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
My understanding is that the figure is 50 per cent above £17 million per annum. We are obviously happy to discuss the matter. That particular aspect was not ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I very much appreciate what the minister has just said, but what will be done differently to persuade young people that there is another way—other than joini...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The member and I have touched on such matters at hustings and on other occasions. She is aware that some matters are outwith the justice department's silo. T...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
On the effectiveness of Europol in helping to prevent crime in Scotland, is the minister satisfied that the intelligence that he receives from Europol regard...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I believe so. I met the director general of Europol. I am not aware of any evidence from police officers or organisations in Scotland that appropriate inform...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to see that, in 2008, our weekly discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will continue. I welcome this debate on serious organised cr...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
The member referred to long sentences for serious criminals. Does she see that being balanced by shorter sentences for less serious crimes?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them o...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the debate. As Pauline McNeill said, this is the first week back, so we have the first justice debate, and another is due next week. I also welcome...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secre...
Mike Pringle:
LD
One problem is that often the Mercedes or house is owned not by the drug dealer but by his wife or son. What do we do about that? How do we address that prob...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Mr Pringle highlights what is undoubtedly a real problem, but at some stage the house will have been part of a transaction. In many instances, the house will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
You should begin to wind up now.
Bill Aitken:
Con
The Mr Bigs of the criminal world need to know that we are after their houses—whether in Spain or in posh areas of Glasgow—and that we are after their cars.I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes.
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Serious organised crime is one of the most difficult issues before our Parliament because it goes right to the basis of our civil society.I begin by going ba...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowle...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I start by saying that I am rather disappointed in the Lib Dem amendment. It does them no favours and it belittles the debate, which is about a very serious ...
Margaret Smith:
LD
In my speech I sought to remind Sandra White and others that in the fight against serious organised crime there is a role not only for specialists but for th...
Sandra White:
SNP
I do not want to know about the Liberal Democrats' manifesto commitments, some of which certainly have not been taken forward. That said, I take the member's...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support the motion and the amendments. I have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting Margaret Smith's amendment. Indeed, I am very pleased with her amendme...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the debate. I also welcome the Scottish Government's creation of the serious organised crime task force.As each member who has spoken thus far has ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate giv...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I have great pleasure in speaking in the debate because, unlike the subjects of other debates, serious organised crime in Scotland is an issue that resonates...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem....
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
The debate has been useful as it has allowed us to consider the issues connected with serious crime and how we might tackle it. There is much in the Governme...
Bill Butler:
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?