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Chamber

Plenary, 09 Jan 2008

09 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Organised Crime
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.

In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice stated that serious organised crime presents a major threat to Scotland's communities. I disagree. I think that it is the major threat. The evidence for that is perfectly clear. If it were not for the big-time criminals, we would not have the spin-offs that we see at all levels. Were it not for those at the top of the tree, there would not be the number of shambling drug abusers whom we see panhandling on the streets, there would not be as many women prostituting themselves to feed a drug habit, and not as much small-time property crime would be committed to get money for drugs. That highlights why we have to be so determined in combating those who are prepared to peddle human misery.

I would criticise the former Executive, the Government and indeed the Parliament under many headings, but I do not think that a fair analysis of the facts could lead us to say other than that there has been a determined effort to combat the problem. The problem is that we have to do more. We have all grown up with internationalism and we approve of it, but it has not come without problems. Businesses are now much more international in their outlook, and the way in which the drug barons and others carry on their illicit trade has a degree of sophistication that would make it an ideal model for study by Harvard Business School. The criminals are so sophisticated and so cunning—and they use every form of device that is available—that it is sometimes exceptionally difficult to combat them.

But combat them we must and, from what I have heard so far, I am sure that combat them we will, because failure to do so would have the most appalling consequences. That is why the Conservatives welcome enthusiastically the cabinet secretary's proposal to reduce seizure thresholds. Like Margaret Smith, I trust and am sure that that will not be yet another device to instigate conflict between the Westminster and Scottish Governments. We also support the cabinet secretary's plans to introduce a new offence. Again, that will have the unanimous support of the chamber.

We must look at ways of extending the battle against these people. As we are all aware, they are sophisticated and use all sorts of covers, such as taxi and security firms. We in turn have to become sufficiently sophisticated to combat them. To date, the operation of the SCDEA has been exceptionally good. We have seen signs of action, activity and success and the SCDEA and the Crown Office are to be congratulated on what has been achieved. Nevertheless, we must do much more.

On the operation of the agency, it was a matter of regret that we had to lose Graeme Pearson. Like Pauline McNeill, I pay public tribute to his outstanding pioneering contribution as the first director of the agency. It must also be said that some of the comments that were made subsequent to Graeme Pearson's departure were profoundly unhelpful. When those who are charged with maintaining law and order fall out among themselves, the only ones who are likely to benefit from such discord are those whom we seek to oppose—the bad guys. I hope that that lesson has been learned by all concerned.

That difficulty prompted me to wonder whether it is now necessary to look at the operation of the agency. I read with interest the Justice 2 Committee's report on the legislation that set up the SCDEA, which expressed concerns about the agency's level of autonomy and recommended that its director should be of chief constable status. It is worth looking at that again. It might be better if the SCDEA operated entirely autonomously, with its own budget and recruitment process. Chief constables will certainly have to be influenced to allow the SCDEA to recruit their brightest and best.

Although the McGraws and Stevensons are household names in Glasgow in particular, elsewhere in Scotland we have to combat the anonymous, shadowy figures who are making millions—in some cases, possibly billions—of pounds in international trade dealing in drugs, people trafficking, and counterfeit money. I am concerned about the level of resentment that Glasgow people in particular feel when they see people such as Stevenson and others who are involved in drug trafficking going to jail while their families are still living in million-pound houses and have a state-of-the-art Mercedes parked outside the door and holiday homes in Spain.

Of course, there have been successful recoveries, but I wonder whether we simply have to get a lot tougher. We should consider changing the onus of proof so that it no longer needs to be on the Crown. When someone has been convicted of drug dealing, has been given a significant prison sentence and has demonstrable assets, they should have to tell the Crown and the investigating authorities where that money came from. The onus of proof must be put on them. We require to go much further than we do at the moment. People who are unusually rich despite never having done a day's work in their life require to be pursued.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan): SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1101, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on serious organised crime.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill): SNP
I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the major threats facing Scotland today: serious organised crime. Organised crime impacts on us all. For too long...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD): LD
In his letter to the Home Secretary, has the minister referred to the possibility of Scotland retaining all the money that it gets under the 2002 act? I unde...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
My understanding is that the figure is 50 per cent above £17 million per annum. We are obviously happy to discuss the matter. That particular aspect was not ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind): Ind
I very much appreciate what the minister has just said, but what will be done differently to persuade young people that there is another way—other than joini...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
The member and I have touched on such matters at hustings and on other occasions. She is aware that some matters are outwith the justice department's silo. T...
Margo MacDonald: Ind
On the effectiveness of Europol in helping to prevent crime in Scotland, is the minister satisfied that the intelligence that he receives from Europol regard...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
I believe so. I met the director general of Europol. I am not aware of any evidence from police officers or organisations in Scotland that appropriate inform...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): Lab
I am pleased to see that, in 2008, our weekly discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will continue. I welcome this debate on serious organised cr...
Margo MacDonald: Ind
The member referred to long sentences for serious criminals. Does she see that being balanced by shorter sentences for less serious crimes?
Pauline McNeill: Lab
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them o...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
I welcome the debate. As Pauline McNeill said, this is the first week back, so we have the first justice debate, and another is due next week. I also welcome...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): Con
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secre...
Mike Pringle: LD
One problem is that often the Mercedes or house is owned not by the drug dealer but by his wife or son. What do we do about that? How do we address that prob...
Bill Aitken: Con
Mr Pringle highlights what is undoubtedly a real problem, but at some stage the house will have been part of a transaction. In many instances, the house will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
You should begin to wind up now.
Bill Aitken: Con
The Mr Bigs of the criminal world need to know that we are after their houses—whether in Spain or in posh areas of Glasgow—and that we are after their cars.I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes.
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
Serious organised crime is one of the most difficult issues before our Parliament because it goes right to the basis of our civil society.I begin by going ba...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab): Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowle...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I start by saying that I am rather disappointed in the Lib Dem amendment. It does them no favours and it belittles the debate, which is about a very serious ...
Margaret Smith: LD
In my speech I sought to remind Sandra White and others that in the fight against serious organised crime there is a role not only for specialists but for th...
Sandra White: SNP
I do not want to know about the Liberal Democrats' manifesto commitments, some of which certainly have not been taken forward. That said, I take the member's...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): Lab
I support the motion and the amendments. I have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting Margaret Smith's amendment. Indeed, I am very pleased with her amendme...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I welcome the debate. I also welcome the Scottish Government's creation of the serious organised crime task force.As each member who has spoken thus far has ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): Lab
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate giv...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I have great pleasure in speaking in the debate because, unlike the subjects of other debates, serious organised crime in Scotland is an issue that resonates...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD): LD
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem....
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con): Con
The debate has been useful as it has allowed us to consider the issues connected with serious crime and how we might tackle it. There is much in the Governme...
Bill Butler: Lab
Will the member give way on that point?