Chamber
Plenary, 09 Jan 2008
09 Jan 2008 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Organised Crime
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them of their assets will be as big a deterrent as a long sentence will be.
Money laundering, human trafficking, drug dealing and corruption are all crimes that cause human misery. I remind members—not that we ever need to be reminded of the scourge of drug misuse in our communities—that a recent study showed that 62 per cent of women drug users have also been physically abused.
This is stuff that we know all too well and which we have debated many times in the Parliament. I want to speak about the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency, because—along with the task force that the cabinet secretary referred to—it is a crucial body in the fight against organised crime. I am sure that I will not be the only person to pay tribute to the work of Graeme Pearson, who led the agency in its first years, and his vision of the creation of a joint campus at Gartcosh that could bring together the agencies that have been mentioned this afternoon. Perhaps whoever winds up for the Government could clarify whether that project will proceed. It is important that we hear loudly and clearly that the concept is still on the table.
I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the new director general of the SCDEA, Gordon Meldrum, on his appointment and to wish him all the best in what I think will be a challenging period ahead.
For a small country, Scotland has done exceptionally well in its response to organised and international crime. We are the largest users of Europol, we have a strong voice on the international stage and we have shown expertise and professionalism in the use of covert intelligence methods, which have brought us credibility. The national high-technology crime unit has a track record in tackling grooming activity and crimes against children on the internet. Further, this Parliament, passed the Protection of Children (Scotland) Act 2003, which is an important piece of legislation in the fight against organised crime that affects children.
Lately, there has been a lot of discussion in the press about our policing structures and plans for the future. The rules and structures that we adopt can affect our effectiveness. The tensions that are currently being expressed in the national press about the relationship—really a public battle—between the SCDEA and the police's new common services agency must end. I hope that ministers will give their full support to the SCDEA and protect its operational autonomy. Those who have been following this matter will know that the outgoing director was explicit in raising his concerns on that issue.
It is also important to recognise the role that has been set for the new common services agency. It was not established as an overarching and centralising body for all police matters, but it has a crucial role in ensuring that we reinvest any savings in services. I have every confidence that the new chief executive will ensure that that happens.
Labour took bold steps in office by creating the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which is working. I look forward to more discussion and more detail about the proposal that the cabinet secretary made this afternoon to reform the act to make it even more effective. The act survived the European convention on human rights and is an important tool in the fight against organised crime.
I hope that other parties will support the Labour amendment. We just want to ensure that, in setting up the right structures and having the right legislation, we make the 2002 act a priority for resourcing. I hope that the Government will support our amendment.
Labour proposed to legislate for additional reforms, of which I will mention one. New violent offenders orders would have given courts extra powers to restrict where violent offenders could live and to prevent them from associating with particular individuals or organisations. We would like to make quite a few reforms to make the 2002 act even more effective.
In the time that remains, I will talk about a subject that the Parliament has discussed before—Scotland's role in tackling the serious crime of human trafficking. The United Nations estimates that 4 million people a year are smuggled worldwide and trafficked into slavery. In Italy, there are 200 trials pending for people trafficking. Women are bonded to their slave masters, and their families at home would be harmed if they revealed that they were trafficked.
It is shocking to find that trafficking is not just international but takes place on our own soil. Recent press reports said that women who were held as sex slaves in Scotland were bought for £7,000 and forced to have sex with up to 20 men a day and that human traffickers charged up to £60 a time for sex with the victims. Those women have now been freed, thanks to a massive police operation. They are among 17 sex slaves who have been rescued in a series of raids throughout Scotland in the past few months. That shows that we are making progress in tackling that crime. Every police force in Scotland is involved in the clampdown on human trafficking, which ensures that operation pentameter 2—a United Kingdom-wide effort to free women from the clutches of organised crime gangs—is happening in Scotland.
I will mention a project in Glasgow that deals with human trafficking, as it is in my constituency. It is an example of good practice and is the only dedicated trafficking project outside London, but it is restricted to dealing with women who are over 18 who have been the victims of commercial sexual exploitation and it excludes children and men in the sex industry. There is more work to do, but it should be acknowledged that Scotland has done well at tackling serious and complex structures of criminal organisation.
The work continues. I welcome the debate and what the cabinet secretary said. I look forward to future dialogue on ensuring that we have the right legislation, although Labour members are clear about the fact that the Scottish Government needs to commit the resources to make that happen.
I move amendment S3M-1101.1, to insert at end:
"and calls on the Scottish Government to ensure that the necessary resources are in place to effectively implement the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002."
Money laundering, human trafficking, drug dealing and corruption are all crimes that cause human misery. I remind members—not that we ever need to be reminded of the scourge of drug misuse in our communities—that a recent study showed that 62 per cent of women drug users have also been physically abused.
This is stuff that we know all too well and which we have debated many times in the Parliament. I want to speak about the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency, because—along with the task force that the cabinet secretary referred to—it is a crucial body in the fight against organised crime. I am sure that I will not be the only person to pay tribute to the work of Graeme Pearson, who led the agency in its first years, and his vision of the creation of a joint campus at Gartcosh that could bring together the agencies that have been mentioned this afternoon. Perhaps whoever winds up for the Government could clarify whether that project will proceed. It is important that we hear loudly and clearly that the concept is still on the table.
I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate the new director general of the SCDEA, Gordon Meldrum, on his appointment and to wish him all the best in what I think will be a challenging period ahead.
For a small country, Scotland has done exceptionally well in its response to organised and international crime. We are the largest users of Europol, we have a strong voice on the international stage and we have shown expertise and professionalism in the use of covert intelligence methods, which have brought us credibility. The national high-technology crime unit has a track record in tackling grooming activity and crimes against children on the internet. Further, this Parliament, passed the Protection of Children (Scotland) Act 2003, which is an important piece of legislation in the fight against organised crime that affects children.
Lately, there has been a lot of discussion in the press about our policing structures and plans for the future. The rules and structures that we adopt can affect our effectiveness. The tensions that are currently being expressed in the national press about the relationship—really a public battle—between the SCDEA and the police's new common services agency must end. I hope that ministers will give their full support to the SCDEA and protect its operational autonomy. Those who have been following this matter will know that the outgoing director was explicit in raising his concerns on that issue.
It is also important to recognise the role that has been set for the new common services agency. It was not established as an overarching and centralising body for all police matters, but it has a crucial role in ensuring that we reinvest any savings in services. I have every confidence that the new chief executive will ensure that that happens.
Labour took bold steps in office by creating the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which is working. I look forward to more discussion and more detail about the proposal that the cabinet secretary made this afternoon to reform the act to make it even more effective. The act survived the European convention on human rights and is an important tool in the fight against organised crime.
I hope that other parties will support the Labour amendment. We just want to ensure that, in setting up the right structures and having the right legislation, we make the 2002 act a priority for resourcing. I hope that the Government will support our amendment.
Labour proposed to legislate for additional reforms, of which I will mention one. New violent offenders orders would have given courts extra powers to restrict where violent offenders could live and to prevent them from associating with particular individuals or organisations. We would like to make quite a few reforms to make the 2002 act even more effective.
In the time that remains, I will talk about a subject that the Parliament has discussed before—Scotland's role in tackling the serious crime of human trafficking. The United Nations estimates that 4 million people a year are smuggled worldwide and trafficked into slavery. In Italy, there are 200 trials pending for people trafficking. Women are bonded to their slave masters, and their families at home would be harmed if they revealed that they were trafficked.
It is shocking to find that trafficking is not just international but takes place on our own soil. Recent press reports said that women who were held as sex slaves in Scotland were bought for £7,000 and forced to have sex with up to 20 men a day and that human traffickers charged up to £60 a time for sex with the victims. Those women have now been freed, thanks to a massive police operation. They are among 17 sex slaves who have been rescued in a series of raids throughout Scotland in the past few months. That shows that we are making progress in tackling that crime. Every police force in Scotland is involved in the clampdown on human trafficking, which ensures that operation pentameter 2—a United Kingdom-wide effort to free women from the clutches of organised crime gangs—is happening in Scotland.
I will mention a project in Glasgow that deals with human trafficking, as it is in my constituency. It is an example of good practice and is the only dedicated trafficking project outside London, but it is restricted to dealing with women who are over 18 who have been the victims of commercial sexual exploitation and it excludes children and men in the sex industry. There is more work to do, but it should be acknowledged that Scotland has done well at tackling serious and complex structures of criminal organisation.
The work continues. I welcome the debate and what the cabinet secretary said. I look forward to future dialogue on ensuring that we have the right legislation, although Labour members are clear about the fact that the Scottish Government needs to commit the resources to make that happen.
I move amendment S3M-1101.1, to insert at end:
"and calls on the Scottish Government to ensure that the necessary resources are in place to effectively implement the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002."
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-1101, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on serious organised crime.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the major threats facing Scotland today: serious organised crime. Organised crime impacts on us all. For too long...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
In his letter to the Home Secretary, has the minister referred to the possibility of Scotland retaining all the money that it gets under the 2002 act? I unde...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
My understanding is that the figure is 50 per cent above £17 million per annum. We are obviously happy to discuss the matter. That particular aspect was not ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I very much appreciate what the minister has just said, but what will be done differently to persuade young people that there is another way—other than joini...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
The member and I have touched on such matters at hustings and on other occasions. She is aware that some matters are outwith the justice department's silo. T...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
On the effectiveness of Europol in helping to prevent crime in Scotland, is the minister satisfied that the intelligence that he receives from Europol regard...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I believe so. I met the director general of Europol. I am not aware of any evidence from police officers or organisations in Scotland that appropriate inform...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to see that, in 2008, our weekly discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will continue. I welcome this debate on serious organised cr...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
The member referred to long sentences for serious criminals. Does she see that being balanced by shorter sentences for less serious crimes?
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
I am clear that, in relation to serious organised crime, we need long sentences. My point is that showing criminals that we can hurt them by stripping them o...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the debate. As Pauline McNeill said, this is the first week back, so we have the first justice debate, and another is due next week. I also welcome...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I am tempted to say that if Margaret Smith comes to some harm in the next few days, we will know who is responsible.In his opening remarks, the Cabinet Secre...
Mike Pringle:
LD
One problem is that often the Mercedes or house is owned not by the drug dealer but by his wife or son. What do we do about that? How do we address that prob...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Mr Pringle highlights what is undoubtedly a real problem, but at some stage the house will have been part of a transaction. In many instances, the house will...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
You should begin to wind up now.
Bill Aitken:
Con
The Mr Bigs of the criminal world need to know that we are after their houses—whether in Spain or in posh areas of Glasgow—and that we are after their cars.I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of around six minutes.
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Serious organised crime is one of the most difficult issues before our Parliament because it goes right to the basis of our civil society.I begin by going ba...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that, in a wide-ranging contribution to the first major debate on justice matters after last year's election, he acknowle...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I start by saying that I am rather disappointed in the Lib Dem amendment. It does them no favours and it belittles the debate, which is about a very serious ...
Margaret Smith:
LD
In my speech I sought to remind Sandra White and others that in the fight against serious organised crime there is a role not only for specialists but for th...
Sandra White:
SNP
I do not want to know about the Liberal Democrats' manifesto commitments, some of which certainly have not been taken forward. That said, I take the member's...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support the motion and the amendments. I have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting Margaret Smith's amendment. Indeed, I am very pleased with her amendme...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the debate. I also welcome the Scottish Government's creation of the serious organised crime task force.As each member who has spoken thus far has ...
Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab):
Lab
I asked to speak in this debate even though the subject is outwith my shadow portfolio, because it means so much to people in my constituency. The debate giv...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I have great pleasure in speaking in the debate because, unlike the subjects of other debates, serious organised crime in Scotland is an issue that resonates...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
The debate has been vital in maintaining the dialogue between elected representatives that is required to tackle an adaptive and constantly evolving problem....
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
The debate has been useful as it has allowed us to consider the issues connected with serious crime and how we might tackle it. There is much in the Governme...
Bill Butler:
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?