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Chamber

Plenary, 15 Nov 2007

15 Nov 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Legal Services Market
Harvie, Christopher SNP Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV
Presiding Officer, I crave your indulgence for my late arrival in the chamber.

We are sentimental about the law because the law and the office of Lord Advocate were the devolved Government of Scotland for so long. Law is one of the nation's great estates and its temporal power has outlasted the formal union. Not long ago, all the leaders of the Scottish political parties—Donald Dewar, Malcolm Rifkind, Gordon Wilson and David Steel—were lawyers. I wrote about that in a Scotsman essay, in which I quoted Sir Walter Scott—the arch lawyer—who called the law "the most mighty of goddesses."

As a deal-making nation, we have always needed lawyers commercially. The circumstances of the present day might mean that lawyers, as well as lay people, have qualms about the economic future. Perhaps that justifies non-specialists such as me participating in the debate, which has got me thinking.

I am not altogether reassured, as I once was, by the name Which? The publication did great things in the days when local oligarchies of retailers and other worthies held communities to ransom, but its market-driven image of reform was the supermarket, which is not very comforting. We can imagine the impact on the local solicitor who has handled the local store's business in a Scottish rural town when the inevitable occurs and the big supermarket moves in offshore, so to speak. What happens to the solicitor's business and to the middle-class element of small and medium-sized legal industry?

The legal profession was part of the glue that held small-town Scotland together. It held the Liberal Party together—in a way, the fall of the local solicitor contributed after the first world war to the fall of the Liberals. We now know that the notion of Tesco justice—of coming out of the big store with a legal opinion in a shopping trolley—has its downside. I would worry about asking Tesco for legal advice, because slotting in its customer card involves an intelligence system that makes Big Brother look like a boy scout doing his espionage and intelligence badge.

The issue is not just the big store's dominance. Another problem is that the legal profession, possibly as a reaction, is greatly involved in house purchases and sales. Recent years have been great for the housing and retail-driven economy, but I do not think that that will be the case for much longer. At the other end of society, lawyers often find themselves compromised in the policing and regulation of areas of a country that has a huge drug problem—it is three times the European average—and a commensurately large black economy.

In that context, is the professionalisation of the legal system into joint bodies that sell specialist services a welcome approach? It has attractive elements and precedent exists in housing. Law might be combined with urban planning, conservation and housing provision. However, we must remember that on the continent, those professional specialisations usually answer to specialised administrative courts, which is not the case in this country. The problem always exists that a corporate, oath-driven and oath-commanded profession will conflict with the market. One of the less attractive sides of Scottish 18th century society was that some lawyers took an overtly political line: one recollects the expressions of opinion from Lord Braxfield that caused Charles James Fox to say, "God help the country that has such lawyers in it."

There is the difference between what the American social philosopher Jeremy Rifkin calls the third sector—for which we are aiming—in which we collaborate voluntarily to extend public good, and his fourth sector, which is driven by criminal greed and to which I have referred. It was slightly strange that immediately after the heist of the century—the theft of the Buccleuch Leonardo—a member of the legal profession had his shoulder tapped by the boys in blue. I can think of not a few places in Scotland in which such a black economy is the whole economy.

Another aspect to address is the very large law firms. It is interesting that two of the biggest firms in London—Hetheringtons and Linklaters—bear Scottish names. If we added in Peat Marwick, they would be predominantly Orkney names. In the scenario that I have described, where are such firms? They are huge and their reputation runs back 100 to 150 years. They are not new phenomena—in the 1880s, the huge expansion in Scottish overseas investments, particularly in the United States, was driven by Charlotte Square as much as it was by Dundee jute barons. There is ambiguity when big business is international, because it often tends to take its political morality from the further extensions of globalisation.

I draw members' attention to a book that is worth reading, which appeared in the same year as did the "The Red Paper on Scotland"—I suppose that the Prime Minister has been seen going round the bookshops of Edinburgh trying to buy the remaining copies of that book, to cover his radical flaming tracks. However, a much more interesting book that was also produced in 1975 is "The Crime Industry" by the late John Mack, a sociologist at the University of Glasgow, and my Tübingen colleague Hans-Ju¨rgen Kerner. It concentrated on the extent to which tax havens, globalisation and computers could totally blur the distinction between sharp business practice and outright criminal activity. It involves a huge amount of transactional money, which has been valued at $1.3 trillion—it is probably more, if we allow for the dollar's depreciation in recent years. For the corporate legal sector of Scotland, which can be of enormous use to us—particularly in securing the legal framework for tasks such as extending renewables production and enhancing that globally—we must think of a regulatory body that is sensitive not just to domestic activities, but to complex international and European facts.

We must also think of the relationship with Europe that we will enjoy in the future. We should not have a defensive attitude—we should find out what we can learn from, for example, the notariat system in Europe as a means of simplifying domestic law.

I thank members for their indulgence in listening to me.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson): NPA
Good morning. The first item of business today is a debate on motion S3M-847, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on competition, regulation and business structu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill): SNP
I appreciate that the level of excitement about today's debate is not quite on all fours with the anticipation for Saturday's 5 pm kick-off at Hampden Park, ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): Lab
The Law Society of Scotland has suggested that, in its assumptions about the Scottish legal system, the Consumers Association made a number of errors, which ...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
We have been in regular contact with the OFT. We have always been at pains to point out that we accept the need for consumers' rights to be preserved and pro...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): Lab
I note that at your request, Presiding Officer, the minister extended his speech. I hope that you do not receive a fee note for that, given that he previousl...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
I intervene at Mr Martin's request. We accept that although the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates each perform a pivotal role for their professions, t...
Paul Martin: Lab
I welcome that commitment from the cabinet secretary and agree with that way forward.A number of key issues are worth raising today, some of which were menti...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
I call Bill Aitken. Mr Aitken, as you have picked up, you basically have as long as you like.
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): Con
Gee, thanks.The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and I have exchanged some harsh words this week, but he will no doubt be relieved to learn that that is highly ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab): Lab
Okay, so the legal profession contributes £1.2 billion to the Scottish economy, but is Bill Aitken saying that legal fees should go up instead of some way be...
Bill Aitken: Con
No. Mr Whitton will be relieved to learn that I am saying that we should expand the market and bring in more business. As a good public relations man, he sho...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
I now call Mike Pringle, to whom the instructions that I gave Mr Aitken also apply.
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD): LD
That is probably a first.Although this subject is important, the English 2007 act that covers these issues does not become effective until 2011, so we are di...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the motion and Pauline McNeill on her amendment. The Scottish Government is clearly attempting to develop...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): Lab
When we are debating legal structures, it is important that we focus on the people who require access to the legal system. Their needs must inform our decisi...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
I am grateful for the points made about civil legal aid. The Government's position has always been that we are happy to provide facilities for civil legal ai...
Rhoda Grant: Lab
I understand the minister's point, but we have to consider the consumer—the person who needs the service. If they are saying that they are unable to access s...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I am sure that many members in the chamber are as delighted as I am at being dragooned into being here this morning.Scotland has a unique situation regarding...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman): Lab
Excuse me, Mr McMillan.I do not know how many times I have to say this to members, but phones have to be switched off. Off.
Stuart McMillan: SNP
Of course, funding problems are not solely related to community law centres. The Scottish Legal Aid Board's legal funds have been significantly drained thank...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab): Lab
I speak to the amendment in the name of my colleague Pauline McNeill, with particular emphasis on widening choice and on easier access to more affordable leg...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
No, they have not. What the member says seems rather to contradict Mr Martin's points. Is Mr Whitton telling the chamber that he supports Tesco law?
David Whitton: Lab
I support the move to make the law more affordable and more accessible to ordinary people in the street. One of the reasons why people want to introduce what...
Aileen Campbell (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
Like previous speakers, I welcome the debate. It gives the Scottish Government the opportunity to respond to the super-complaint from the consumer group Whic...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
In the context of an extensive debate, I will address one specific issue that has not been mentioned much—advocates. The argument is made that it is uneconom...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
Presiding Officer, I crave your indulgence for my late arrival in the chamber.We are sentimental about the law because the law and the office of Lord Advocat...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
Again, we have had an interesting debate. It has been interesting listening to colleagues trying to fill not only their time, but that of other members. I en...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con): Con
I declare an interest as a member of the Law Society of England and Wales. I was a practising solicitor with Brodies until June 2007.Like many others who hav...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): Lab
I declare an interest in that my husband is a practising advocate. However, competition, regulation and alternative business structures are not often the sub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan): SNP
Order. The member may wish to draw her remarks to a conclusion, to allow the minister adequate time to respond.