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Chamber

Plenary, 15 Nov 2007

15 Nov 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Legal Services Market
Martin, Paul Lab Glasgow Springburn Watch on SPTV
I welcome that commitment from the cabinet secretary and agree with that way forward.

A number of key issues are worth raising today, some of which were mentioned in the Which? super-complaint. We must recognise that we live in the age of the one-stop shop. It is evident that consumers want commodities to be available at one point of contact, and I do not think that anybody would advocate that we should change an arrangement that consumers have demanded. The idea that solicitors, accountants, surveyors and others operate to a new business model that makes them available at a single point of contact is appealing. The majority of consumers out there would probably welcome such a model and the opportunities that would arise from a much clearer pricing policy and a more tailored service.

There is a need for caution, however. The merging of services in such a business model could allow the integrity and independence of solicitors to be questioned. How solicitors would interact with other professions would need to be made clear. Unlike some members I am not legally qualified, but as a lay person, I am well aware of the high value that is attached to the independence of solicitors when they go about their daily business. That is why that proposed business model should be interrogated carefully.

Moreover, a number of press and media reports—I do not know whether there is other detailed intelligence—have told how members of the criminal underworld take the opportunities offered by that business model to infiltrate legal practices. Such concerns were raised about the situation in England and Wales. I welcome the clear commitment from the minister to deliver a Scottish model that is based on the Scottish legal system. He rightly sets us apart from other parts of the United Kingdom because of the demographics of our communities. That point should be given serious consideration. Let us not be distracted by the model that has been delivered in England and Wales, although there might be opportunities to learn from experience there.

We need to balance our approach to the proposed model with listening to some of the concerns that have been raised by legal professionals. A concern that has been raised with me is that people who are not qualified in the legal arena are providing legal advice. Under any new business model, we must be clear that anybody who provides legal advice must have a legal qualification. I seek assurances from the Government that it will deal with that genuine concern from legal professionals about unqualified people on the periphery of the legal arena.

Another concern that was raised in the Which? super-complaint was about competition. Most of us would argue that competition is a good thing for consumers. We all like a bargain—whether it is Pauline McNeill on her many visits to Buchanan Galleries in Glasgow or people who trawl through the price comparison sites on the internet to find a cheap holiday or cheap insurance. I am not sure whether there will ever be a price comparison site for legal services—perhaps there already is one, or perhaps somebody has thought about developing one. Although I am not legally qualified, I argue that comparing prices on the internet for legal advice is probably more complex than comparing Asda's grocery prices with those of Tesco and others.

We must ensure that competition works in the consumer's favour and that our communities benefit from it. Although many of the arguments for the proposed business model are probably well meant, that model might not provide genuine competition. A number of sole traders provide a valuable legal service and we must ensure both that they are able to continue to do so under any new arrangements and that competition remains.

In the cabinet secretary's speech to the Law Society, he said that Tesco already has internet advertisements for a £199 conveyancing service in England and Wales. Perhaps the price appeals to the consumer, but will they get the same quality of service? Another concern is that many public limited companies with aggressive and robust business plans would not want to be involved in some of the more detailed work that sole traders carry out, which could lead to cherry picking. Perhaps some sole practitioners already cherry pick—I am not sure—but we must interrogate such arguments carefully.

In conclusion, the Law Society said in its consultation document that, of course, there will be rigorous debate on the subject in the Law Society. There is always rigorous debate in the Law Society—what better people to have such debate than legal practitioners? That is a good thing. Although today's debate is perhaps undersubscribed, when we reach the more detailed stages of the debate on the proposed business model for the legal profession and various organisations have made their representations to Parliament, there will be more rigorous debate in the chamber.

We welcome the fact that the Law Society has said that the status quo is not an option. That is a mature way to approach the debate. It is also a welcome response to the various reviews that have taken place and to the Which? super-complaint. The legal profession has a responsibility to take the issue forward.

The Presiding Officer is gesturing that I can go on for as long as I like, which is unusual, but I will finally conclude by saying that we need to have a rigorous debate in the Parliament. It is important that whatever model we deliver makes a genuine difference in communities throughout Scotland. For far too long, many of our communities have not enjoyed the access to justice that they should have enjoyed and we must ensure that the legal profession provides a high-quality service in that respect.

I move amendment S3M-847.1, to insert at end:

"and considers that this approach should also widen choice, provide easier access to legal services and create the conditions for more affordable services so that social justice will be at the heart of future changes."

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson): NPA
Good morning. The first item of business today is a debate on motion S3M-847, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on competition, regulation and business structu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill): SNP
I appreciate that the level of excitement about today's debate is not quite on all fours with the anticipation for Saturday's 5 pm kick-off at Hampden Park, ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): Lab
The Law Society of Scotland has suggested that, in its assumptions about the Scottish legal system, the Consumers Association made a number of errors, which ...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
We have been in regular contact with the OFT. We have always been at pains to point out that we accept the need for consumers' rights to be preserved and pro...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): Lab
I note that at your request, Presiding Officer, the minister extended his speech. I hope that you do not receive a fee note for that, given that he previousl...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
I intervene at Mr Martin's request. We accept that although the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates each perform a pivotal role for their professions, t...
Paul Martin: Lab
I welcome that commitment from the cabinet secretary and agree with that way forward.A number of key issues are worth raising today, some of which were menti...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
I call Bill Aitken. Mr Aitken, as you have picked up, you basically have as long as you like.
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): Con
Gee, thanks.The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and I have exchanged some harsh words this week, but he will no doubt be relieved to learn that that is highly ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab): Lab
Okay, so the legal profession contributes £1.2 billion to the Scottish economy, but is Bill Aitken saying that legal fees should go up instead of some way be...
Bill Aitken: Con
No. Mr Whitton will be relieved to learn that I am saying that we should expand the market and bring in more business. As a good public relations man, he sho...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
I now call Mike Pringle, to whom the instructions that I gave Mr Aitken also apply.
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD): LD
That is probably a first.Although this subject is important, the English 2007 act that covers these issues does not become effective until 2011, so we are di...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the motion and Pauline McNeill on her amendment. The Scottish Government is clearly attempting to develop...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): Lab
When we are debating legal structures, it is important that we focus on the people who require access to the legal system. Their needs must inform our decisi...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
I am grateful for the points made about civil legal aid. The Government's position has always been that we are happy to provide facilities for civil legal ai...
Rhoda Grant: Lab
I understand the minister's point, but we have to consider the consumer—the person who needs the service. If they are saying that they are unable to access s...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I am sure that many members in the chamber are as delighted as I am at being dragooned into being here this morning.Scotland has a unique situation regarding...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman): Lab
Excuse me, Mr McMillan.I do not know how many times I have to say this to members, but phones have to be switched off. Off.
Stuart McMillan: SNP
Of course, funding problems are not solely related to community law centres. The Scottish Legal Aid Board's legal funds have been significantly drained thank...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab): Lab
I speak to the amendment in the name of my colleague Pauline McNeill, with particular emphasis on widening choice and on easier access to more affordable leg...
Kenny MacAskill: SNP
No, they have not. What the member says seems rather to contradict Mr Martin's points. Is Mr Whitton telling the chamber that he supports Tesco law?
David Whitton: Lab
I support the move to make the law more affordable and more accessible to ordinary people in the street. One of the reasons why people want to introduce what...
Aileen Campbell (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
Like previous speakers, I welcome the debate. It gives the Scottish Government the opportunity to respond to the super-complaint from the consumer group Whic...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
In the context of an extensive debate, I will address one specific issue that has not been mentioned much—advocates. The argument is made that it is uneconom...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
Presiding Officer, I crave your indulgence for my late arrival in the chamber.We are sentimental about the law because the law and the office of Lord Advocat...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
Again, we have had an interesting debate. It has been interesting listening to colleagues trying to fill not only their time, but that of other members. I en...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con): Con
I declare an interest as a member of the Law Society of England and Wales. I was a practising solicitor with Brodies until June 2007.Like many others who hav...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): Lab
I declare an interest in that my husband is a practising advocate. However, competition, regulation and alternative business structures are not often the sub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan): SNP
Order. The member may wish to draw her remarks to a conclusion, to allow the minister adequate time to respond.