Chamber
Plenary, 15 Nov 2007
15 Nov 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Legal Services Market
We have been in regular contact with the OFT. We have always been at pains to point out that we accept the need for consumers' rights to be preserved and protected. As I made clear at the Law Society conference, which the convener of the Justice Committee also attended, we also recognise that, at the end of the day, we are not simply consumers but part of a community, so we must also bear in mind our responsibilities in that regard. Our position is that we are happy to continue to liaise with and speak to the OFT. On the particular issue that the member raised, I will come back to her at a later stage. If I do not, I am sure that my colleague Fergus Ewing will mention the issue.
We are considering carefully everything that the OFT has said. We agree that change needs to happen, but I have no intention of adopting a model that is unsuited to our needs as a country. Our geography, demography and topography are different from those of England. We are a country of small towns, islands and archipelagos rather than a series of large urban metropolitan areas. The English bar has 14,000 members, whereas the Scottish bar has 470. An SNP Government will do what is right for Scotland. We will not preside over any diminution in the quality and integrity of the Scottish legal profession.
In September, I set out a challenge to the profession to lead the debate on how reform should be taken forward in Scotland. I am pleased to report that it has responded to that challenge. Two weeks ago, the Law Society published a consultation on alternative business structures. The Faculty of Advocates has also initiated a debate within the bar about how its rules might be amended. I pay tribute to the Law Society for the leadership and courage that it has demonstrated. It is difficult for a membership organisation to lead its members through radical change, especially when no clear or consistent view prevails among an overwhelming majority of its members.
However, the Law Society's consultation rightly makes clear why the status quo is not an option and sets out a timetable for rapid change. The society aims to present detailed proposals early in the new year, following the conclusion of its consultation on 31 January. I anticipate that the bar should be able to match and even improve on that timescale.
That urgency is not a response to a timetable set by the OFT, but a response to the practical issues faced by the profession and, even more important, by those who use our legal services. We cannot build a wall against specialisation, commodification or competition from outside the profession—they are already happening. Senior and respected figures in the profession are already identifying how reforms might create new opportunities. At this stage I do not intend to limit their thinking, but I will set out the tests that I will apply to determine whether the proposals that come forward meet Scotland's needs.
In short, it is our ambition that everyone in Scotland should have access to good-quality legal services when they need them. The word quality is fundamental—the right level of service at the right price. The badge of Scottish solicitor or advocate has always carried an assurance of professionalism, which I am determined to maintain. A key test for me will be whether our large financial institutions, which are able to choose where to take their legal business, increasingly choose to do that business in Scotland. There is something fundamentally wrong if key players in the Scottish economy choose to litigate in another jurisdiction. It is fundamental that we ensure that they make their home jurisdiction their jurisdiction of choice.
As well as ensuring quality, we need to expand access. That means maintaining viable legal services in local communities. New business structures may be helpful—for example, if they allow a firm to offer a wider range of services. However, there are dangers in moving in a single step to a wholly open market, and we should not allow new entrants from outside the profession unless access and quality can be maintained.
We need to deliver quality and access, and we will be able to do so if we strike the right balance between competition and regulation. If we act quickly, we can get ahead of the game. England's reforms are massive and will take several years to implement. As a small country, we can do what any good small business would do—we can be flexible and innovative, test out new ideas quickly and build on those that have potential.
Of course, there are things that we must safeguard and difficult issues that we must resolve. I strongly believe in the value of an independent referral bar and will do all that I can to help the high street firms that offer vital services to our local communities. We need to ensure that the core values of the profession are not diminished and to consider how reform might affect important consumer safeguards such as the solicitors guarantee fund. I look forward to hearing Parliament's views on those issues, which will inform the response that we make to the OFT later this year.
I hope that members will support our motion, but I am happy to accept the amendment that Pauline McNeill has lodged. In this and previous debates, I have indicated that, although this may not be the most flamboyant or interesting subject for members, the general public or the press corps—representatives of which are entirely absent today—it is fundamental. I pay tribute to those who are participating in the debate and those on the Opposition front benches who are addressing the matter constructively, to ensure that the Parliament gets it right.
We accept that this is a difficult time for our legal profession. That is understandable when people are afraid for their livelihood, because they fear that change may undermine their situation and damage their economic position. The Law Society is doing an excellent job of trying to allay understandable fears, at the same time as making it quite clear that the status quo is not and cannot be an option—not because the desire for change is driven from here in Scotland, but because there is change in our society and elsewhere in the world. We must adapt. If we do so, the profession that has served us well, not only through 300 years of an incorporating union but over the centuries prior to that, will be able to deliver.
We are at one with Pauline McNeill in the desire to enhance justice at grass-roots level, through new forms of provision, where appropriate, and through continued support for those members of the profession who have served local communities over the years, often for modest rewards. We will remain a candid and supportive friend of the legal profession, helping it to continue to serve Scotland well in the years to come.
We will doubtless have to return to the chamber on the issue. Whether there will be greater interest on the part of the media and others is a matter on which we will have to comment at that stage, but the issue is fundamental. Today's debate is taking place at an early juncture, but we can lay out what we envisage for the legal profession. It must maintain quality of service, continue to assure value, through regulation, and continue to ensure, as the Labour amendment makes clear, that it serves not only itself and those who have the appropriate financial means, but all our communities in as many ways as it can.
The way in which the law serves its community is changing. The changes in our society mean that the legal profession must change substantially. Today we are taking a significant stride forward. I pay tribute to all members who are participating in the debate, which will be on-going and cannot simply be left to the legal profession. Given the importance and pivotal role of the legal profession in our society, everyone in our community—especially those who have been given the privilege of speaking in the chamber—should participate in the debate.
The Law Society has also taken a significant stride forward, and we should support it in its efforts. I hope that when we return to the chamber on the issue, the profession will be united on the direction that it wishes us to take. Ultimately, it is the Government's desire to work with the Law Society to deliver the appropriate legislative changes that the society wants, rather than to impose directions. We are making it clear that the status quo cannot be retained and that there must be change, because of matters beyond our or the profession's control. Together we can ensure that a legal profession that has served us well continues to do so and, as Pauline McNeill has rightly said, continues to serve our communities. However, as a Government with ambition for Scotland, we also look forward to firms that aspire to compete pan-UK, if not internationally, being able to do so, as we are now in a global world.
I move,
That the Parliament notes the Office of Fair Trading's response to the super-complaint by Which? on restrictions on business structures and direct access in the Scottish legal profession and the Law Society of Scotland's consultation on alternative business structures; believes that the regulatory and business structures of the Scottish legal profession should reflect Scottish circumstances and support improved access to high-quality legal services in a competitive and appropriately regulated market in accordance with competition law, and notes the Scottish Government's approach of working closely with the legal profession to secure reforms that will allow the Scottish legal profession to compete internationally while enhancing access to justice in local communities.
We are considering carefully everything that the OFT has said. We agree that change needs to happen, but I have no intention of adopting a model that is unsuited to our needs as a country. Our geography, demography and topography are different from those of England. We are a country of small towns, islands and archipelagos rather than a series of large urban metropolitan areas. The English bar has 14,000 members, whereas the Scottish bar has 470. An SNP Government will do what is right for Scotland. We will not preside over any diminution in the quality and integrity of the Scottish legal profession.
In September, I set out a challenge to the profession to lead the debate on how reform should be taken forward in Scotland. I am pleased to report that it has responded to that challenge. Two weeks ago, the Law Society published a consultation on alternative business structures. The Faculty of Advocates has also initiated a debate within the bar about how its rules might be amended. I pay tribute to the Law Society for the leadership and courage that it has demonstrated. It is difficult for a membership organisation to lead its members through radical change, especially when no clear or consistent view prevails among an overwhelming majority of its members.
However, the Law Society's consultation rightly makes clear why the status quo is not an option and sets out a timetable for rapid change. The society aims to present detailed proposals early in the new year, following the conclusion of its consultation on 31 January. I anticipate that the bar should be able to match and even improve on that timescale.
That urgency is not a response to a timetable set by the OFT, but a response to the practical issues faced by the profession and, even more important, by those who use our legal services. We cannot build a wall against specialisation, commodification or competition from outside the profession—they are already happening. Senior and respected figures in the profession are already identifying how reforms might create new opportunities. At this stage I do not intend to limit their thinking, but I will set out the tests that I will apply to determine whether the proposals that come forward meet Scotland's needs.
In short, it is our ambition that everyone in Scotland should have access to good-quality legal services when they need them. The word quality is fundamental—the right level of service at the right price. The badge of Scottish solicitor or advocate has always carried an assurance of professionalism, which I am determined to maintain. A key test for me will be whether our large financial institutions, which are able to choose where to take their legal business, increasingly choose to do that business in Scotland. There is something fundamentally wrong if key players in the Scottish economy choose to litigate in another jurisdiction. It is fundamental that we ensure that they make their home jurisdiction their jurisdiction of choice.
As well as ensuring quality, we need to expand access. That means maintaining viable legal services in local communities. New business structures may be helpful—for example, if they allow a firm to offer a wider range of services. However, there are dangers in moving in a single step to a wholly open market, and we should not allow new entrants from outside the profession unless access and quality can be maintained.
We need to deliver quality and access, and we will be able to do so if we strike the right balance between competition and regulation. If we act quickly, we can get ahead of the game. England's reforms are massive and will take several years to implement. As a small country, we can do what any good small business would do—we can be flexible and innovative, test out new ideas quickly and build on those that have potential.
Of course, there are things that we must safeguard and difficult issues that we must resolve. I strongly believe in the value of an independent referral bar and will do all that I can to help the high street firms that offer vital services to our local communities. We need to ensure that the core values of the profession are not diminished and to consider how reform might affect important consumer safeguards such as the solicitors guarantee fund. I look forward to hearing Parliament's views on those issues, which will inform the response that we make to the OFT later this year.
I hope that members will support our motion, but I am happy to accept the amendment that Pauline McNeill has lodged. In this and previous debates, I have indicated that, although this may not be the most flamboyant or interesting subject for members, the general public or the press corps—representatives of which are entirely absent today—it is fundamental. I pay tribute to those who are participating in the debate and those on the Opposition front benches who are addressing the matter constructively, to ensure that the Parliament gets it right.
We accept that this is a difficult time for our legal profession. That is understandable when people are afraid for their livelihood, because they fear that change may undermine their situation and damage their economic position. The Law Society is doing an excellent job of trying to allay understandable fears, at the same time as making it quite clear that the status quo is not and cannot be an option—not because the desire for change is driven from here in Scotland, but because there is change in our society and elsewhere in the world. We must adapt. If we do so, the profession that has served us well, not only through 300 years of an incorporating union but over the centuries prior to that, will be able to deliver.
We are at one with Pauline McNeill in the desire to enhance justice at grass-roots level, through new forms of provision, where appropriate, and through continued support for those members of the profession who have served local communities over the years, often for modest rewards. We will remain a candid and supportive friend of the legal profession, helping it to continue to serve Scotland well in the years to come.
We will doubtless have to return to the chamber on the issue. Whether there will be greater interest on the part of the media and others is a matter on which we will have to comment at that stage, but the issue is fundamental. Today's debate is taking place at an early juncture, but we can lay out what we envisage for the legal profession. It must maintain quality of service, continue to assure value, through regulation, and continue to ensure, as the Labour amendment makes clear, that it serves not only itself and those who have the appropriate financial means, but all our communities in as many ways as it can.
The way in which the law serves its community is changing. The changes in our society mean that the legal profession must change substantially. Today we are taking a significant stride forward. I pay tribute to all members who are participating in the debate, which will be on-going and cannot simply be left to the legal profession. Given the importance and pivotal role of the legal profession in our society, everyone in our community—especially those who have been given the privilege of speaking in the chamber—should participate in the debate.
The Law Society has also taken a significant stride forward, and we should support it in its efforts. I hope that when we return to the chamber on the issue, the profession will be united on the direction that it wishes us to take. Ultimately, it is the Government's desire to work with the Law Society to deliver the appropriate legislative changes that the society wants, rather than to impose directions. We are making it clear that the status quo cannot be retained and that there must be change, because of matters beyond our or the profession's control. Together we can ensure that a legal profession that has served us well continues to do so and, as Pauline McNeill has rightly said, continues to serve our communities. However, as a Government with ambition for Scotland, we also look forward to firms that aspire to compete pan-UK, if not internationally, being able to do so, as we are now in a global world.
I move,
That the Parliament notes the Office of Fair Trading's response to the super-complaint by Which? on restrictions on business structures and direct access in the Scottish legal profession and the Law Society of Scotland's consultation on alternative business structures; believes that the regulatory and business structures of the Scottish legal profession should reflect Scottish circumstances and support improved access to high-quality legal services in a competitive and appropriately regulated market in accordance with competition law, and notes the Scottish Government's approach of working closely with the legal profession to secure reforms that will allow the Scottish legal profession to compete internationally while enhancing access to justice in local communities.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business today is a debate on motion S3M-847, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on competition, regulation and business structu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill):
SNP
I appreciate that the level of excitement about today's debate is not quite on all fours with the anticipation for Saturday's 5 pm kick-off at Hampden Park, ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The Law Society of Scotland has suggested that, in its assumptions about the Scottish legal system, the Consumers Association made a number of errors, which ...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
We have been in regular contact with the OFT. We have always been at pains to point out that we accept the need for consumers' rights to be preserved and pro...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):
Lab
I note that at your request, Presiding Officer, the minister extended his speech. I hope that you do not receive a fee note for that, given that he previousl...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I intervene at Mr Martin's request. We accept that although the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates each perform a pivotal role for their professions, t...
Paul Martin:
Lab
I welcome that commitment from the cabinet secretary and agree with that way forward.A number of key issues are worth raising today, some of which were menti...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I call Bill Aitken. Mr Aitken, as you have picked up, you basically have as long as you like.
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Gee, thanks.The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and I have exchanged some harsh words this week, but he will no doubt be relieved to learn that that is highly ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
Okay, so the legal profession contributes £1.2 billion to the Scottish economy, but is Bill Aitken saying that legal fees should go up instead of some way be...
Bill Aitken:
Con
No. Mr Whitton will be relieved to learn that I am saying that we should expand the market and bring in more business. As a good public relations man, he sho...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I now call Mike Pringle, to whom the instructions that I gave Mr Aitken also apply.
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
That is probably a first.Although this subject is important, the English 2007 act that covers these issues does not become effective until 2011, so we are di...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for Justice on the motion and Pauline McNeill on her amendment. The Scottish Government is clearly attempting to develop...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
When we are debating legal structures, it is important that we focus on the people who require access to the legal system. Their needs must inform our decisi...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
I am grateful for the points made about civil legal aid. The Government's position has always been that we are happy to provide facilities for civil legal ai...
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
I understand the minister's point, but we have to consider the consumer—the person who needs the service. If they are saying that they are unable to access s...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that many members in the chamber are as delighted as I am at being dragooned into being here this morning.Scotland has a unique situation regarding...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
Excuse me, Mr McMillan.I do not know how many times I have to say this to members, but phones have to be switched off. Off.
Stuart McMillan:
SNP
Of course, funding problems are not solely related to community law centres. The Scottish Legal Aid Board's legal funds have been significantly drained thank...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak to the amendment in the name of my colleague Pauline McNeill, with particular emphasis on widening choice and on easier access to more affordable leg...
Kenny MacAskill:
SNP
No, they have not. What the member says seems rather to contradict Mr Martin's points. Is Mr Whitton telling the chamber that he supports Tesco law?
David Whitton:
Lab
I support the move to make the law more affordable and more accessible to ordinary people in the street. One of the reasons why people want to introduce what...
Aileen Campbell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like previous speakers, I welcome the debate. It gives the Scottish Government the opportunity to respond to the super-complaint from the consumer group Whic...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
In the context of an extensive debate, I will address one specific issue that has not been mentioned much—advocates. The argument is made that it is uneconom...
Christopher Harvie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Presiding Officer, I crave your indulgence for my late arrival in the chamber.We are sentimental about the law because the law and the office of Lord Advocat...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
Again, we have had an interesting debate. It has been interesting listening to colleagues trying to fill not only their time, but that of other members. I en...
John Lamont (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest as a member of the Law Society of England and Wales. I was a practising solicitor with Brodies until June 2007.Like many others who hav...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest in that my husband is a practising advocate. However, competition, regulation and alternative business structures are not often the sub...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan):
SNP
Order. The member may wish to draw her remarks to a conclusion, to allow the minister adequate time to respond.