Chamber
Plenary, 15 Mar 2007
15 Mar 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill
Mr Gallie always raises questions about bail and people's responsibility to comply with conditions. The onus is absolutely on the offender: if conditions are put on the licence, the offender has a responsibility to comply with them. Offenders will get support that is proportionate to the nature of the risk that they pose, and if they need assistance in dealing with housing or access to employment, for example, that might be factored into the licence conditions. However, let us be clear: it will be made plain to the offender that they are expected to comply with the licence conditions. They will get help and support, but the responsibility is ultimately on them to comply. If they do not comply, they could find themselves back in prison, which does not happen in all circumstances at the moment.
We have not pressed ahead with these changes without having regard to the key interests who will be responsible for putting the measures into practice—it is important to recognise that in response to what Mr Gallie said. The support and the conditions will be proportionate.
The changes that we made at stage 2 clearly demonstrate our willingness to listen, make changes where necessary and work with our partners to improve bills. We have done that all the way through our extensive programme of justice reforms. We have listened and as a result we have made changes.
I know that people have raised concerns about resources, the viability of custody and community structures and the impact on the Scottish Prison Service and on community supports. Some people have suggested that we have been too adventurous in trying to do more for all offenders who receive sentences of 15 days or more. Let us be clear: the bill will have an impact on prisoner numbers and more resources will be needed, but we have been open about that and the costs are reflected in the financial memorandum.
We face an enormous challenge to build an operational structure that will deliver the new measures effectively, efficiently and proportionately. The fact that what we seek to do is difficult is not a reason for not making changes. The public expect us to make changes and it is our responsibility to proceed with them.
We must break away from the artificial restrictions of the established processes and respond imaginatively to the challenge of dealing with those offenders who, for the first time, will get real help to address—and, ultimately, to change—their offending behaviour. We are right to continue to consider ways of better protecting the public from high-risk offenders and we are right to put in place programmes to deal with the causes of offending and to focus on reoffending.
The vast majority of offenders will be less likely to reoffend when they have a home and a job or training to go to and when their addiction problems are addressed. One of the greatest strengths of the new system is that it will cater for the full spectrum of risk and needs. That is why I have set up a high-level planning group to steer the implementation work, as the deputy minister mentioned this morning. We want there to be less reoffending and fewer victims; we want offenders to make something of their lives; and, ultimately, we want safer communities.
The bill also puts in place the final elements of the First Minister's five-point plan on knife crime. I know that the reasons for those changes are well understood, as we heard this morning. I welcome the support of members of all parties for our proposals, which will add to the tough measures that we have already taken by placing further restrictions on the sale of dangerous weapons.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill be passed.
We have not pressed ahead with these changes without having regard to the key interests who will be responsible for putting the measures into practice—it is important to recognise that in response to what Mr Gallie said. The support and the conditions will be proportionate.
The changes that we made at stage 2 clearly demonstrate our willingness to listen, make changes where necessary and work with our partners to improve bills. We have done that all the way through our extensive programme of justice reforms. We have listened and as a result we have made changes.
I know that people have raised concerns about resources, the viability of custody and community structures and the impact on the Scottish Prison Service and on community supports. Some people have suggested that we have been too adventurous in trying to do more for all offenders who receive sentences of 15 days or more. Let us be clear: the bill will have an impact on prisoner numbers and more resources will be needed, but we have been open about that and the costs are reflected in the financial memorandum.
We face an enormous challenge to build an operational structure that will deliver the new measures effectively, efficiently and proportionately. The fact that what we seek to do is difficult is not a reason for not making changes. The public expect us to make changes and it is our responsibility to proceed with them.
We must break away from the artificial restrictions of the established processes and respond imaginatively to the challenge of dealing with those offenders who, for the first time, will get real help to address—and, ultimately, to change—their offending behaviour. We are right to continue to consider ways of better protecting the public from high-risk offenders and we are right to put in place programmes to deal with the causes of offending and to focus on reoffending.
The vast majority of offenders will be less likely to reoffend when they have a home and a job or training to go to and when their addiction problems are addressed. One of the greatest strengths of the new system is that it will cater for the full spectrum of risk and needs. That is why I have set up a high-level planning group to steer the implementation work, as the deputy minister mentioned this morning. We want there to be less reoffending and fewer victims; we want offenders to make something of their lives; and, ultimately, we want safer communities.
The bill also puts in place the final elements of the First Minister's five-point plan on knife crime. I know that the reasons for those changes are well understood, as we heard this morning. I welcome the support of members of all parties for our proposals, which will add to the tough measures that we have already taken by placing further restrictions on the sale of dangerous weapons.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill be passed.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5632, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the Parliament agrees that the Custodial Sentences and Weapons ...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
It is often said that a week is a long time in politics, but the past four years seem to have flown by as we have worked on comprehensively reforming our cri...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
Indeed.
Phil Gallie:
Con
I thank the minister for giving way with her usual courtesy, but how on earth can she guarantee that the licence conditions will be met in full? Bail conditi...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
Mr Gallie always raises questions about bail and people's responsibility to comply with conditions. The onus is absolutely on the offender: if conditions are...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Although there are aspects of the bill that we fully support, there are parts of it that still cause us significant concern. We are grateful to the minister ...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
I apologise for being slightly late for the minister's speech. I was debating the matter on television with Bill Butler.During this morning's stage 3 proceed...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
Will Mr Aitken enlighten members on the cost of the proposals in the amendments that he moved this morning, which were unsuccessful? What impact would those ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
The minister will appreciate that if the amendments in my name had been agreed to they would have had an impact on the prison estate and another prison would...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I hope that Bill Aitken agrees that it is important to make a distinction between prisoners who are released on licence and shorter-term prisoners who are cu...
Bill Aitken:
Con
I accept the minister's point in part, but if someone reoffends during the unexpired period of their sentence, they can be brought back to the court to be de...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Bill Aitken:
Con
I am sorry, but I am in my last minute.Offences at the lower end of the scale are not a serious matter, but when there is an accumulation of offences, someth...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
We will support the bill today, as we did at stage 1, although we share many of the concerns that were outlined by Kenny MacAskill. The bill is only one part...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the Justice 2 Committee clerks, our advisers, the ministers and their officials and everyone who gave evidence and helped to shape the bill.I very mu...
Bill Aitken:
Con
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Of course.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Where has the member been for the past 10 years? After all, the Labour Party has had that long to change the current flawed system.
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
The difference is that we are changing the system now. The record will show that the Tories did not do so and that, in fact, they wasted opportunities to mak...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
This morning, Johann Lamont said that there had been attacks on the bill from both sides—from some who appear to want nobody to be sent to prison and from ot...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
The minister is right to say that the bill represents a fundamental—and good—change in the way in which we do things.There was no lack of clarity before. Whe...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
At First Minister's question time today, the First Minister said that the bill will end the Tories' provisions on the automatic early release of prisoners. O...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
We come to closing speeches. We are behind the clock, so I am obliged to Jeremy Purvis for waiving his second speaking slot.
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
It is with disappointment that I rise today. I had great hopes for the bill. Like Bill Aitken and others, including Colin Fox and Patrick Harvie, I feel that...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Johann Lamont):
Lab
The member obviously did not listen to my earlier explanation. When sentencing, judges take into account whatever they choose to take into account, including...
Phil Gallie:
Con
If it is simply not true, minister, why on earth leave those words in the bill? They could have been removed. Given what the minister has said, it would not ...
Jeremy Purvis:
LD
Will the member give way?
Phil Gallie:
Con
I am sorry, but I am in my last minute. Patrick Harvie's points on education and addressing addiction were worth while. There is a need for longer terms in p...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I say to Phil Gallie that, if this is legislating in haste, I would hate to see us taking our time. After 10 years, it is probably time that we got round to ...