Chamber
Plenary, 07 Mar 2007
07 Mar 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Christmas Day and New Year's Day Trading (Scotland) Bill:<br />Stage 3
I still have concerns about the proposed voluntary code. Although I am not a member of the Justice 2 Committee, I sat through the evidence on the bill. The Scottish Retail Consortium was unsure about how the code would pan out. It has member organisations in the retail sector, but will it be able to persuade them to sign up to the code? There are stores that do not want to open on new year's day, but want to keep it a special day, just as Christmas day should be. They want well-rested and happy staff who are much more productive. However, we know that if other stores start to open, they will follow suit. It is much like the smoking ban in that voluntary schemes will not work and we need a level playing field. We owe it to the responsible and caring retailers to provide them with legislation that gives them reassurance.
We know that pressure can be put on staff, as happened this year at Debenhams. We know that staff are told that if they do not work on new year's day they will not get promotion, days off when they want them, the holidays that they want or the jobs in the store that they want. That is unfortunate, so how do we protect those people?
We also know about the subtle pressures that are put on people. A staff member may be told that if he or she does not work, Mrs Smith who has three children—a bigger family—will have to work in his or her place. I have seen that happen and know about the pressures to which shop workers are subject.
Shops are not essential to tourism in Scotland. People may go into the shops when they come here, but ultimately that is not what they come for. If it is the reason that they come here, we have real problems. People do not come to Edinburgh or even to Glasgow to shop, because there are bigger and better shopping centres elsewhere.
People come to Scotland, especially at hogmanay, because of the atmosphere, the events and the tradition that is behind them, and they want to see that in action. Does the economy or tourism collapse in England because shops are shut at Easter? I do not think so. We are seeking equality. In England shops shut on Christmas day and Easter Sunday. We want a Scottish day—new year's day—to be recognised in Scotland. People come to Scotland for its hogmanay celebrations. The events that are held in Edinburgh are world renowned. Are those events to be for everyone except shop workers in Edinburgh and elsewhere in Scotland? The minister still has much to do to convince me that the voluntary agreement will hold, and that I will be able to say to shop workers that they have our protection and we will be able to defend them against bosses who put them under pressure to come in to work against their will. Today we have an opportunity to help to establish a real life-work balance. We should take that opportunity.
We know that pressure can be put on staff, as happened this year at Debenhams. We know that staff are told that if they do not work on new year's day they will not get promotion, days off when they want them, the holidays that they want or the jobs in the store that they want. That is unfortunate, so how do we protect those people?
We also know about the subtle pressures that are put on people. A staff member may be told that if he or she does not work, Mrs Smith who has three children—a bigger family—will have to work in his or her place. I have seen that happen and know about the pressures to which shop workers are subject.
Shops are not essential to tourism in Scotland. People may go into the shops when they come here, but ultimately that is not what they come for. If it is the reason that they come here, we have real problems. People do not come to Edinburgh or even to Glasgow to shop, because there are bigger and better shopping centres elsewhere.
People come to Scotland, especially at hogmanay, because of the atmosphere, the events and the tradition that is behind them, and they want to see that in action. Does the economy or tourism collapse in England because shops are shut at Easter? I do not think so. We are seeking equality. In England shops shut on Christmas day and Easter Sunday. We want a Scottish day—new year's day—to be recognised in Scotland. People come to Scotland for its hogmanay celebrations. The events that are held in Edinburgh are world renowned. Are those events to be for everyone except shop workers in Edinburgh and elsewhere in Scotland? The minister still has much to do to convince me that the voluntary agreement will hold, and that I will be able to say to shop workers that they have our protection and we will be able to defend them against bosses who put them under pressure to come in to work against their will. Today we have an opportunity to help to establish a real life-work balance. We should take that opportunity.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is stage 3 of the Christmas Day and New Year's Day Trading (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have copies ...
Section 1—Large shops not to open on Christmas Day or New Year's Day
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Group 1 is on the application of the bill to new year's day. Amendment 1, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 2 and 3.
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
The bill is an important measure that sets out to prohibit large shops from making retail sales on our two traditionally most important public holidays. Ther...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
I acknowledge the minister's constructive comments. At stage 1, the Executive presented evidence that about 80 per cent of all shop workers will not fall wit...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
As Mr Purvis has suggested, many shop workers will not be covered by the bill, such as those who work in small shops. That is a given and we understood that ...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one wants Christmas day and new year's day to become general trading days, and I agree with much of what the minister said in her opening remarks. The Jus...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
I still have concerns about the proposed voluntary code. Although I am not a member of the Justice 2 Committee, I sat through the evidence on the bill. The S...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
The Scottish Conservatives' position on the bill has been clear from the outset—I made it clear when Parliament debated the bill at stage 1. We do not have d...
The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Allan Wilson):
Lab
Does Murdo Fraser agree that there is a difference between a person who works in an essential service or a continuous manufacturing process being contractual...
Murdo Fraser:
Con
The minister makes the argument for extending the bill to cover shops of all sizes and other industries. Why does the bill restrict trading only in particula...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I pay tribute to Karen Whitefield. The Liberal Democrats in Parliament share her desire to keep Christmas day and new year's day as special days that are not...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
It is clear that the case has not been made that Scotland will miss out on income if the largest stores cannot open on new year's day.Mary Mulligan clearly d...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
Why does the member think that it is okay to work in a small business but not in a big business on new year's day? I am in a quandary about that, because the...
Mark Ballard:
Green
The Scottish Grocers Federation clearly pointed out the difference between a family shop and a big business in which there is the potential for employees to ...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
The Executive is in an utter mess over the bill. The minister told us that the bill is important in that it will prevent trading on Christmas day. She said t...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
It would have been nice if Mary Mulligan had attended the Justice 2 Committee and laid before it the evidence that she claims she has, identifying all the in...
Mrs Mulligan:
Lab
If Mr Davidson sees the bill as an infringement on trade, why is he happy to accept the measures for Christmas day, but not those for new year's day?
Mr Davidson:
Con
Very simply, we do not think that there should be a bill at all. There was no evidence that anybody, at this stage, wants to trade on Christmas day. The reta...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
Is it Mr Davidson's viewpoint that people do not want to trade on Christmas day, or are the Tories playing to the church vote that they think they might get ...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I am sorry, but given that I ran retail businesses that had to operate on Christmas day to provide a public service, I think that that comment is a wee bit m...
Members:
That is not the same thing.
Mr Davidson:
Con
I hear members shouting from a sedentary position, but what is the difference between somebody who works to meet a public need, whether related to health or ...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
How can the bill be a restraint on trade? The bill prevents large shops from opening on Christmas day, when they do not open anyway; the amendments would let...
Mr Davidson:
Con
Restraint on trade is the principle of the bill.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
It does not restrain—
Mr Davidson:
Con
I did not introduce the bill; Karen Whitefield did. The point is that, if there is no market, people will not open their premises. People should be left to r...
Karen Whitefield:
Lab
It is important to concentrate on the real issue before the Parliament this morning: the needs and rights of many of Scotland's shop workers, both those who ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Does Karen Whitefield agree that everyone who votes for ordinary working people going to work on new year's day should be prepared to come in here on the sam...
Karen Whitefield:
Lab
I have some sympathy with that argument. It is unlikely that anyone in the chamber works on new year's day or Christmas day. We take that for granted, as do ...