Chamber
Plenary, 07 Mar 2007
07 Mar 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Christmas Day and New Year's Day Trading (Scotland) Bill:<br />Stage 3
The bill is an important measure that sets out to prohibit large shops from making retail sales on our two traditionally most important public holidays. There is no doubt that the bill is motivated by the desire to keep Christmas and new year special. In these materialistic times, it is important that those annual celebrations are kept special and that most people can take time off to be with their families. It is also important to bear it in mind that at stage 1 and since then, no one has desired that either of those days become general trading days in Scotland.
The bill is about trading and not about employment rights, which are reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Legislation cannot cover every eventuality. For example, many people who are involved in essential services need to work or to be on call on public holidays, which include Christmas day and new year's day. Some people choose, for a variety of reasons, to work on those days and to take holidays at other times. As members throughout the chamber will acknowledge, some trade union members—including Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers members—work well behind the scenes in the retail and distribution sectors. The bill would not necessarily cover them.
As we said at stage 1, we agree broadly with the bill's purposes. However, in debate at stage 1 and subsequently, it has been clear that a range of views exists in Parliament. Some concerns were expressed at stage 1 and a range of views continues to exist in Parliament and, I suspect, within political parties. Some members wish to reject the bill entirely and prefer a more free-market approach, to which I do not subscribe. Others argue—mainly on economic grounds—that Christmas day and new year's day should not be treated in the same way. We have debated that. Others feel that the bill should be passed and that it might not go far enough.
The Executive's job is often to weave its way through the intricacies and complexities of the arguments to find the right balance of views, to establish a consensus—if possible—and to find common ground and agreement about how to enact Parliament's will. In this instance, the question is how to protect the special nature of Christmas day and new year's day without unnecessary regulation.
At stage 1, cross-party support was expressed for action in relation to Christmas day—no one would argue about that. However, as I said, the debate about new year's day was unresolved, which is why the Executive made it clear at stage 1 that it would lodge amendments to allow the debate to take place, which we have done.
The Justice 2 Committee acknowledged at stage 1 that both sides' evidence on the impacts on enterprise and on tourism had weaknesses. Another new year's day has taken place since the bill was introduced, which has added a bit to our knowledge, but the evidence is still incomplete and that is why it is important to conduct a full assessment of the economic and social impacts of banning opening on new year's day, and of the impacts on family life of opening shops on that day. I want to do that properly and thoroughly.
My commitment, on the Executive's behalf, is to proceed with that work in conjunction with all the relevant interests. Amendments 1, 2 and 3 spell that out. Organisations that have interests include trade unions, the Scottish Retail Consortium and local authorities—particularly those in Glasgow and Edinburgh, which have expressed concerns. Amendment 2 says that all councils—all have an interest—will be consulted.
The bill is about trading and not about employment rights, which are reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Legislation cannot cover every eventuality. For example, many people who are involved in essential services need to work or to be on call on public holidays, which include Christmas day and new year's day. Some people choose, for a variety of reasons, to work on those days and to take holidays at other times. As members throughout the chamber will acknowledge, some trade union members—including Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers members—work well behind the scenes in the retail and distribution sectors. The bill would not necessarily cover them.
As we said at stage 1, we agree broadly with the bill's purposes. However, in debate at stage 1 and subsequently, it has been clear that a range of views exists in Parliament. Some concerns were expressed at stage 1 and a range of views continues to exist in Parliament and, I suspect, within political parties. Some members wish to reject the bill entirely and prefer a more free-market approach, to which I do not subscribe. Others argue—mainly on economic grounds—that Christmas day and new year's day should not be treated in the same way. We have debated that. Others feel that the bill should be passed and that it might not go far enough.
The Executive's job is often to weave its way through the intricacies and complexities of the arguments to find the right balance of views, to establish a consensus—if possible—and to find common ground and agreement about how to enact Parliament's will. In this instance, the question is how to protect the special nature of Christmas day and new year's day without unnecessary regulation.
At stage 1, cross-party support was expressed for action in relation to Christmas day—no one would argue about that. However, as I said, the debate about new year's day was unresolved, which is why the Executive made it clear at stage 1 that it would lodge amendments to allow the debate to take place, which we have done.
The Justice 2 Committee acknowledged at stage 1 that both sides' evidence on the impacts on enterprise and on tourism had weaknesses. Another new year's day has taken place since the bill was introduced, which has added a bit to our knowledge, but the evidence is still incomplete and that is why it is important to conduct a full assessment of the economic and social impacts of banning opening on new year's day, and of the impacts on family life of opening shops on that day. I want to do that properly and thoroughly.
My commitment, on the Executive's behalf, is to proceed with that work in conjunction with all the relevant interests. Amendments 1, 2 and 3 spell that out. Organisations that have interests include trade unions, the Scottish Retail Consortium and local authorities—particularly those in Glasgow and Edinburgh, which have expressed concerns. Amendment 2 says that all councils—all have an interest—will be consulted.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is stage 3 of the Christmas Day and New Year's Day Trading (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have copies ...
Section 1—Large shops not to open on Christmas Day or New Year's Day
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Group 1 is on the application of the bill to new year's day. Amendment 1, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 2 and 3.
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
The bill is an important measure that sets out to prohibit large shops from making retail sales on our two traditionally most important public holidays. Ther...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
I acknowledge the minister's constructive comments. At stage 1, the Executive presented evidence that about 80 per cent of all shop workers will not fall wit...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
As Mr Purvis has suggested, many shop workers will not be covered by the bill, such as those who work in small shops. That is a given and we understood that ...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
No one wants Christmas day and new year's day to become general trading days, and I agree with much of what the minister said in her opening remarks. The Jus...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
I still have concerns about the proposed voluntary code. Although I am not a member of the Justice 2 Committee, I sat through the evidence on the bill. The S...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
The Scottish Conservatives' position on the bill has been clear from the outset—I made it clear when Parliament debated the bill at stage 1. We do not have d...
The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Allan Wilson):
Lab
Does Murdo Fraser agree that there is a difference between a person who works in an essential service or a continuous manufacturing process being contractual...
Murdo Fraser:
Con
The minister makes the argument for extending the bill to cover shops of all sizes and other industries. Why does the bill restrict trading only in particula...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I pay tribute to Karen Whitefield. The Liberal Democrats in Parliament share her desire to keep Christmas day and new year's day as special days that are not...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
It is clear that the case has not been made that Scotland will miss out on income if the largest stores cannot open on new year's day.Mary Mulligan clearly d...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
Why does the member think that it is okay to work in a small business but not in a big business on new year's day? I am in a quandary about that, because the...
Mark Ballard:
Green
The Scottish Grocers Federation clearly pointed out the difference between a family shop and a big business in which there is the potential for employees to ...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
The Executive is in an utter mess over the bill. The minister told us that the bill is important in that it will prevent trading on Christmas day. She said t...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
It would have been nice if Mary Mulligan had attended the Justice 2 Committee and laid before it the evidence that she claims she has, identifying all the in...
Mrs Mulligan:
Lab
If Mr Davidson sees the bill as an infringement on trade, why is he happy to accept the measures for Christmas day, but not those for new year's day?
Mr Davidson:
Con
Very simply, we do not think that there should be a bill at all. There was no evidence that anybody, at this stage, wants to trade on Christmas day. The reta...
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
Is it Mr Davidson's viewpoint that people do not want to trade on Christmas day, or are the Tories playing to the church vote that they think they might get ...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I am sorry, but given that I ran retail businesses that had to operate on Christmas day to provide a public service, I think that that comment is a wee bit m...
Members:
That is not the same thing.
Mr Davidson:
Con
I hear members shouting from a sedentary position, but what is the difference between somebody who works to meet a public need, whether related to health or ...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
How can the bill be a restraint on trade? The bill prevents large shops from opening on Christmas day, when they do not open anyway; the amendments would let...
Mr Davidson:
Con
Restraint on trade is the principle of the bill.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
It does not restrain—
Mr Davidson:
Con
I did not introduce the bill; Karen Whitefield did. The point is that, if there is no market, people will not open their premises. People should be left to r...
Karen Whitefield:
Lab
It is important to concentrate on the real issue before the Parliament this morning: the needs and rights of many of Scotland's shop workers, both those who ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Does Karen Whitefield agree that everyone who votes for ordinary working people going to work on new year's day should be prepared to come in here on the sam...
Karen Whitefield:
Lab
I have some sympathy with that argument. It is unlikely that anyone in the chamber works on new year's day or Christmas day. We take that for granted, as do ...