Chamber
Plenary, 01 Mar 2007
01 Mar 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Illegal Moneylenders
Despite there being two amendments to the Executive's motion, the debate so far has been largely consensual. The Conservatives acknowledge the efforts that the Department of Trade and Industry has made in addressing the problem of illegal moneylending—a problem that pervades certain sections of our society and afflicts the most vulnerable and at-risk people. For many credit-impaired and credit-excluded people, the problem continues a spiral deeper and deeper into debt. We welcome what has been done to date, but we know that more remains to be done.
We have a responsibility to rectify the curse of illegal moneylending. For example, we must intervene earlier when people are in financial difficulty, rather than wait until they are forced into borrowing money illegally from the loan sharks who prey on the most vulnerable people. To be frank, what we are talking about is gangsterism at its most unrefined and crude. Violence is often threatened, as Kenny MacAskill said, and it seems that even today tallymen such as there were in the 1960s are still abroad and operating in the streets of our cities, without remorse and, in many cases, without being detected and prosecuted. That is the primary issue that must be tackled expeditiously and vigorously.
We have to eradicate the culture of loan sharks, which, as I say, threatens a very vulnerable section of society. That culture is flourishing on Britain's increasing amount of personal debt—which, as Margaret Mitchell said, increases by a staggering £1 million every four minutes. The culture is also flourishing on the staggering increase in financial insolvencies, which are widely expected to top 100,000 across the UK in 2007. There is also a culture of crime that is flourishing on the lack of financial education that has produced a citizenry in which approximately 15 per cent of 18 to 24-year-olds think that an ISA—an individual savings account—is an accessory to an iPod, and in which another 10 per cent think that it is an energy drink. There may be a certain amount of black humour in that, but it is unacceptable.
Pilot programmes have been effective in establishing relationships with law enforcement officers in order to crack down on loan sharks, but the pilots are failing to establish effective partnerships with money advisory groups and credit unions, which do such a good job in assisting people who are in debt. It is of the utmost importance that we work with those sectors to ensure that the victims of illegal moneylending are able to work towards solvency and are not forced back into resorting to illegal methods. We must encourage those sectors, which too often are overburdened, so that they are able to offer constructive solutions to individuals' problems.
Businesses have to take a much more active role in providing unbiased and premium advice and training on personal finance. I have listened with interest to much of what has been said today; for example, from his perspective, Colin Fox was quite right to point out the massive sums that the banks have made, although it appears that the vast majority of those profits have been raised not from personal borrowers but from wider aspects of 21st century banking. Nonetheless, we have to consider interest rates and the free availability of credit, although if we do that, we will interfere with other aspects of the economic equation and there will be consequences. That argument is, perhaps, for another day.
We have a responsibility to rectify the curse of illegal moneylending. For example, we must intervene earlier when people are in financial difficulty, rather than wait until they are forced into borrowing money illegally from the loan sharks who prey on the most vulnerable people. To be frank, what we are talking about is gangsterism at its most unrefined and crude. Violence is often threatened, as Kenny MacAskill said, and it seems that even today tallymen such as there were in the 1960s are still abroad and operating in the streets of our cities, without remorse and, in many cases, without being detected and prosecuted. That is the primary issue that must be tackled expeditiously and vigorously.
We have to eradicate the culture of loan sharks, which, as I say, threatens a very vulnerable section of society. That culture is flourishing on Britain's increasing amount of personal debt—which, as Margaret Mitchell said, increases by a staggering £1 million every four minutes. The culture is also flourishing on the staggering increase in financial insolvencies, which are widely expected to top 100,000 across the UK in 2007. There is also a culture of crime that is flourishing on the lack of financial education that has produced a citizenry in which approximately 15 per cent of 18 to 24-year-olds think that an ISA—an individual savings account—is an accessory to an iPod, and in which another 10 per cent think that it is an energy drink. There may be a certain amount of black humour in that, but it is unacceptable.
Pilot programmes have been effective in establishing relationships with law enforcement officers in order to crack down on loan sharks, but the pilots are failing to establish effective partnerships with money advisory groups and credit unions, which do such a good job in assisting people who are in debt. It is of the utmost importance that we work with those sectors to ensure that the victims of illegal moneylending are able to work towards solvency and are not forced back into resorting to illegal methods. We must encourage those sectors, which too often are overburdened, so that they are able to offer constructive solutions to individuals' problems.
Businesses have to take a much more active role in providing unbiased and premium advice and training on personal finance. I have listened with interest to much of what has been said today; for example, from his perspective, Colin Fox was quite right to point out the massive sums that the banks have made, although it appears that the vast majority of those profits have been raised not from personal borrowers but from wider aspects of 21st century banking. Nonetheless, we have to consider interest rates and the free availability of credit, although if we do that, we will interfere with other aspects of the economic equation and there will be consequences. That argument is, perhaps, for another day.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5669, in the name of Des McNulty, on dealing with illegal moneylenders.
The Deputy Minister for Communities (Des McNulty):
Lab
We are here this morning to discuss the problem of loan sharks. By "loan sharks" I mean those who break the law by lending money, often at extortionate inter...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I join the minister in unreservedly condemning the actions of illegal moneylenders. How successful have we been, under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 or othe...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I can give the member some figures in relation to the activities of the Glasgow illegal moneylending team. To date, 500 people have benefited from the prosec...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Now there is an admission.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I hope that the SNP will support us in opposition. We will invite our partners, such as Citizens Advice Scotland, Money Advice Scotland and local authorities...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
In moving the amendment in my name, I say that we do not disagree with anything that the minister said. Clearly, the Executive is flagging up an issue that h...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I very much welcome this important debate, which focuses on what has become a huge problem throughout the UK—namely, consumer debt and the activities of ille...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
The debate is a worthwhile one. I am indebted to the Rev Graham Blount for all his work on the issue. He is known to all of us, and is the secretary of the c...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Is Mr Stone aware that much of the collection, intimidation and threatening behaviour that illegal moneylenders carry out is done on the streets and street c...
Mr Stone:
LD
I take that point, but my point is that those activities are not overt, but covert. The police work that is involved has to be much more detailed and clever ...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
From the member's comments, it seems that he supports the statement in the SNP amendment about the burden that legal moneylending puts on people. Is that the...
Mr Stone:
LD
I am attracted to the SNP amendment, but the trouble is that I do not support separation, as I have said elsewhere. The motion and both amendments have merit...
Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab):
Lab
Some time ago—in 2002, I think—I was fortunate enough to secure a members' business debate on loan sharks. The Daily Record was running a campaign to expose ...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
The minister said that the debate is about loan sharks—illegal moneylenders who do not have a licence to lend money. However, does he believe that it is okay...
Members:
Oh, come on!
Ms White:
SNP
Members can intervene if they wish.
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
If we take the member's argument to its logical conclusion, is the SNP saying that it would make tenants pay for repairs to owner-occupiers' houses? Does she...
Ms White:
SNP
Owner-occupiers are quite happy to pay for repairs to their homes, but they simply cannot afford to pay £7,000 within a year. I want the minister to clarify ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
I welcome the opportunity to debate this issue. However, I struggled to find any information about issues such as credit unions and the debt arrangement sche...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Members have made some very good speeches on an issue that we are all concerned about, even if we have slightly different views on how to solve it.Unlike Pat...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
I wonder whether the minister is familiar with the lines that Woody Guthrie sang:"Some will rob you with a six-gunAnd some with a fountain pen."In the motion...
Mr Stone:
LD
I mentioned it.
Colin Fox:
SSP
Mr Stone also mentioned it, but he underplayed it, too. I will tell members why.Today, the Royal Bank of Scotland declared profits of £9.7 billion and, yeste...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I join the minister in condemning illegal moneylenders unreservedly. He was right to say that there are many threads in the strategy to tackle the issue. The...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Despite there being two amendments to the Executive's motion, the debate so far has been largely consensual. The Conservatives acknowledge the efforts that t...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I am interested to know how we can interfere with interest rates when we do not have the powers to do so in this Parliament. Is Mr Aitken suggesting that we ...
Bill Aitken:
Con
No—that is not what I am suggesting. I was careful in what I said so that no one would think that I was suggesting that. I was simply pointing out arguments ...
Colin Fox:
SSP
Perhaps Bill Aitken will unravel the great 21st century mystery of how the banks make their money. They lend at one rate and borrow at another. Is not that w...
Bill Aitken:
Con
That was a rather simplistic argument. On the basis of the equation that Colin Fox advances, the money that the banks make has not been made, to any great ex...