Chamber
Plenary, 28 Feb 2007
28 Feb 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) Bill
I was interested in Mr Ewing's remarks about our imperial Parliament, as he called it. I simply point out that the present emperor is Scottish, that the next emperor, albeit for a short time, is likely to be Scottish and that the institution is held in such regard by Mr Ewing's party leader that he deserted this establishment to spend more time in it—and long may he remain there.
I agree with Mr Ewing that the bill at stage 3, which I trust we will approve at decision time, is immeasurably superior to the bill that saw the light of day at stage 1. In two important respects, it has been recast fundamentally. First, we will now retain the existing law on the sellers of sex in section 46 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982. That is the correct decision, because, as was apparent from the evidence that the police and others gave to the committee, the proposal in the bill at stage 1 would have weakened the existing law and made it more difficult to secure convictions. Secondly, the bill now contains a more effective provision to tackle kerb crawling. As Mr Lyon described, we have extended the bill to cover loitering in a car and not simply soliciting from a car. Those changes should be welcomed. The minister's and the Scottish Executive's willingness to work with the committee, in light of the evidence, to modify the bill is commendable. We can be proud of the fact that, for the first time in Scotland, we will criminalise the behaviour of those who seek to buy sex on our streets.
In the interventions that Ms MacDonald has made during our discussions today, she has expressed the concern that women who are engaged in street prostitution will be driven underground. However, if women are driven underground, that will in a sense be testimony to the effectiveness of the measure, albeit the limited measure, that we are discussing. If the police enforce the law and prosecutions are carried out properly, the bill gives us the prospect of ridding the communities who gave evidence to the committee of the plague of street prostitution.
I agree with Mr Ewing that the bill at stage 3, which I trust we will approve at decision time, is immeasurably superior to the bill that saw the light of day at stage 1. In two important respects, it has been recast fundamentally. First, we will now retain the existing law on the sellers of sex in section 46 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982. That is the correct decision, because, as was apparent from the evidence that the police and others gave to the committee, the proposal in the bill at stage 1 would have weakened the existing law and made it more difficult to secure convictions. Secondly, the bill now contains a more effective provision to tackle kerb crawling. As Mr Lyon described, we have extended the bill to cover loitering in a car and not simply soliciting from a car. Those changes should be welcomed. The minister's and the Scottish Executive's willingness to work with the committee, in light of the evidence, to modify the bill is commendable. We can be proud of the fact that, for the first time in Scotland, we will criminalise the behaviour of those who seek to buy sex on our streets.
In the interventions that Ms MacDonald has made during our discussions today, she has expressed the concern that women who are engaged in street prostitution will be driven underground. However, if women are driven underground, that will in a sense be testimony to the effectiveness of the measure, albeit the limited measure, that we are discussing. If the police enforce the law and prosecutions are carried out properly, the bill gives us the prospect of ridding the communities who gave evidence to the committee of the plague of street prostitution.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5629, in the name of Tom McCabe, that Parliament agrees that the Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) ...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
The Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) Bill is an important bill that will address an imbalance in the current law on street prostitution. At present, o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Order. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly.
George Lyon:
LD
I am sure that members will agree that it cannot be right that the law criminalises sellers while remaining silent on the purchasers who exploit them and who...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
Can the minister give a little more detail about the announcement this afternoon of the additional £1 million? Can he say in what financial year it will be a...
George Lyon:
LD
If the member waits, I will come to that as I go through my speech.I am aware that there has been some concern about whether the resources are in place to en...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I appreciate the Executive's intention, but how does the minister think the third objective that he outlined will be achieved unless direct contact can be ma...
George Lyon:
LD
Clearly, as the member is well aware, it is important that services are available to those who are involved in prostitution. Indeed, much work goes on in all...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
The bill will end the double standard whereby a prostitute can be charged with a criminal offence but the man who purchases sex cannot. We all welcome that. ...
George Lyon:
LD
Does the member acknowledge that the bill as introduced created an offence of kerb crawling, whereby men driving in their cars could be prosecuted and convic...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Under the provisions on kerb crawling in the bill as introduced, it would have been a defence that the person was driving in a car, whereas a person on a bus...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I was interested in Mr Ewing's remarks about our imperial Parliament, as he called it. I simply point out that the present emperor is Scottish, that the next...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Will the member be of the same opinion as to the validity of driving street prostitution underground if women are killed and more women are beaten up and vio...
David McLetchie:
Con
I certainly do not want that to happen. We await the information that may come—for example from the case involving the horrific murders in Ipswich—about the ...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
In my speech at stage 1, I indicated to Parliament that I believed that the bill as initially drafted had major problems, many of which were highlighted in t...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
The bill should be quietly voted down. The Executive admits that the bill in front of us is radically different from the one bearing the same name, introduce...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
I understand Margo MacDonald's passion and commitment, but I disagree profoundly with her analysis of and perspective on the issue.When I first became an MSP...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
The amended bill is a vast improvement on its original form and is moving in the right direction. Society's attitude to prostitution and the definition of it...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome the opportunity to explain why I cannot support the bill.Before voting on the bill, members need to ask themselves some key questions. Is the bill ...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
This is now a little bill with a very big title.I join in the tributes paid to the expert group and its work to examine how we can provide genuine solutions ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mark Ballard:
Green
I do not have enough time.Although the bill may deal with red light districts, will it deal with or simply move street prostitution? It will make it more dif...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I had always thought that kerb crawling was already a statutory offence in Scotland. It is not, but the bill will close the gap in our legislation. Until now...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Does the member agree with Fergus Ewing that the purchase of sex should be a crime? I quote exactly.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
No.Bristow Muldoon said that Fergus Ewing was trying to grandstand, which I thought was unfair. He was not trying to grandstand—he was grandstanding.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Yes—grandstand again, Fergus.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I am curious about whether Mr Rumbles will explain why it is wrong for a man to purchase sex on the street, but right for him to do so in a sauna.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
I do not think that we want to ban the purchase of sex, per se, across the country in all circumstances.
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
We have already done that for 16 and 17-year-olds.